New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program • Hacker News Board

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#131

Post by isolli » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

pacbard wrote: post #91

_hilro wrote: post #13

> But the highly selective and racially segregated program will be replaced for incoming students. Wow, using a word such as segregation, which has connotations of 'by design' sure lays bare their hand. Just to be clear, there is no segregation(of any kind) amongst the students in the program. In fact, there is no segregation at all. There's just not equal representation of the makey-uppy USA racial classifications.…

The context for the use of "racially segregated" is probably within the current anti-racist movement (see, for example, Kendi's work). This movement has moved away from labeling racist a policy that was implemented with racist intent (like segregated schools during Jim Crow) towards labeling racist a policy that has unequal outcomes based on race, regardless of policymakers' intent. If you start from that perspective…

Similarly, I consider that the vaccine passport in NYC is racist (in effect if not in intent). By not recognizing infection-acquired immunity, it disproportionately forces Black people to take a vaccine that they do not need. This is because Black people have suffered higher rates of infection (partly due to the fact that they were more likely to work in person during the pandemic). Moreover, for historical reasons (see [0], [1]), Black people have lower rates of vaccine uptake, so the vaccine passport mechanically excludes a higher proportion of them from public spaces.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_...

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#132

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

arkades wrote: post #78

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality, to the priviledged, looks like persecution. That many Asian kids got a golden ticket, and now won't get a golden ticket, seems like not such a problem to those who were denied any such chance at a golden ticket for generations.

Having come out of the gifted and talented programs in question in NYC: The privileged go to private school. Our programs are dominated by first generation immigrants, mostly SE Asian. Even the white component tends to be poor immigrant families. If hard-working and intelligent poor people clawing their way upwards is a stain on equality, something has gone deeply deeply wrong with our conception of equality. It’s al…

You're making it a stain. Equality isn't some attack on your morals.

I am saddened, that all the folks frightened by a world more equal immediately resort to imaginary persecution as a first reaction.

"Not enough black kids" is "bigotry", right? Or do you argue that black kids are not smart? What is that argument called?

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#133

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #59

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #5

It's long been a fallacy that you can sort young kids into high or low performers. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of thing. By starting so young (kindergarten!) in NYC they were creating the division out of essentially nothing. Long ago somebody tried dividing an elementary school class into regular and advanced students. At the end of the year, the advanced students had done better. The selection was a random l…

It's possible that the average school provides insufficient challenge & motivation for the average student, so that rising expectations results in a rise of performance. It's also likely that an "advanced" programme was less tolerant to disruptions and required students to focus more. But regardless, that doesn't change the fact that there are difference between people, and they're shown very early in development. It…

No program was provided. The kids were just labelled. The label was a placebo, and it worked.

Straw-man examples of differences in kids are cute but not helpful. The issue was the imbalance in NYC advanced programs was clearly racial, which begs some kind of correction. Or do we have to resort to "Black kids aren't ever smart enough?" Is that your argument?

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#134

Post by asoneth » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #69

This just means the gifted and talented programs are now only available to the children of gifted and talented parents. Great job everyone. Get your kids out of the public schools in blue states.

Related, I'm absolutely in favor of everyone moving to a state that matches their priorities, but if someone prioritizes "highly-ranked public schools" then you might want to look closely before moving to a generic "red" state. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/public-scho...

There are absolutely "red" states like Nebraska with good public schools, and "blue" states like New Mexico with poor public schools. But there does seem to be some kind of positive correlation between how "blue" a state is and how highly their public schools are ranked.

So if your "blue" state has you itching to pull your kids out of public school, a "red" state may not be significantly better.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#135

Post by MyHypatia » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

When I read the headline I was upset, why get rid of a program that challenges eager young minds? Then I read that the current system tests 4 year olds, and puts these kids on separate tracks. 4 year olds! I'm all for challenging different kids with different levels of material, but the current system of testing and separating kids out starting at 4 years old is absurd. That being said, I think by age 8 (3rd grade) it makes sense to give kids different levels of material so they don't either get bored (because it's too easy) or give up (because it's too hard).

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#136

Post by darthvoldemort » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

silicon2401 wrote: post #129

darthvoldemort wrote: post #119

The inconvenient truth about NYC G&T program is that it is 40% Asian. Asians have dominated the G&T program, even "stealing" spots from white kids where 43% of NYC is white, but only 35% of spots taken by white kids. And Asians are dominating the NYC G&T program NOT because of hundreds of years of systemic racism, NOT because Asians wrote the admissions tests an inbueing cultural bias, and NOT by cheating or bribing…

> in NYC, Asians are the poorest demographic by a large margin. Do you have evidence for this? Asians are by far the richest minority in the US so I was surprised by this statement. > Activists have no problems openly discriminating against Asians because whites, blacks and Latinos think of "Americans" as whites, blacks and Latinos. Asians are considered foreigners. So when a prestigious program is dominated by Asian…

http://www.roosevelthouse.hunter.cuny.edu/?forum-post=resear...

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#137

Post by refenestrator » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #128

refenestrator wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize a lot of those Asians are from poor, immigrant families, right? You ever spend time in Flushing? Rich white liberals should not be tearing them down in the name of "antiracism".

And yes, they were not denied the golden ticket. But others were. Equality can look like persecution, if you used to be a lucky winner.

Busting your ass as an immigrant is only a "golden ticket" compared to staying in the third world.

Meanwhile, the people pushing these changes all have graduate degrees and incredibly privileged backgrounds. It absolutely is persecution and punching down for them to be going after poor immigrants.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#138

Post by threatofrain » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

darthvoldemort wrote: post #119

The inconvenient truth about NYC G&T program is that it is 40% Asian. Asians have dominated the G&T program, even "stealing" spots from white kids where 43% of NYC is white, but only 35% of spots taken by white kids. And Asians are dominating the NYC G&T program NOT because of hundreds of years of systemic racism, NOT because Asians wrote the admissions tests an inbueing cultural bias, and NOT by cheating or bribing…

> Activists have gutted admissions at Thomas Jefferson high school in Fairfax, VA, arguably the top public high school in the US because it had a high percentage of Asians. Lowell High school admissions in SF, a top 100 high school, underwent the exact same thing because of its high percentage of Asians. Now NYC is doing the same thing. At Harvard, the admissions department openly discriminates against Asians by saying they lack "courage" or less "likeable". Imagine the outrage if this happened to Blacks, but because it happened to Asians it's considered okay because Asians are unAmerican.

Also notable is that California is finalizing a proposal to eliminate faster tracking in mathematics, arguing that it is a promotion of white nationalist ideology. Calculus may only be taken in the senior year under these proposals, and Algebra is to be de-emphasized as the primary math target of middle school.¹

I found it quite striking that in a long proposal focused on racial justice in math, there is plenty of mention of white nationalism but exactly zero mention of the word "Asian".

[1]: https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#139

Post by superflit2 » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

darthvoldemort wrote: post #119

The inconvenient truth about NYC G&T program is that it is 40% Asian. Asians have dominated the G&T program, even "stealing" spots from white kids where 43% of NYC is white, but only 35% of spots taken by white kids. And Asians are dominating the NYC G&T program NOT because of hundreds of years of systemic racism, NOT because Asians wrote the admissions tests an inbueing cultural bias, and NOT by cheating or bribing…

The real thing about the asians is:

There is a whole narrative that people are equal and have same capabilities.

Anyone can be a sport start if trains enough or a super scientist if study enough.

Then looking at statistics it is not true.

The same people with cognitive dissonance claim that because social factors, etc. Usually whites get a better treatment thus because and only because of that they have better representation in certain areas (only certain).

Then a lot of money is poured in programs to fix that. Because the narrative says all people are equal.

The opposing narrative says that IQ is genetic and it reflects on career that needs IQ so it really does not matter it will always reflect that.

The two narratives are fighting: social-economics vs genetics and if its a fair fight.

Came the asians.

Poor, non-english skills, living in bad neighborhoods.

They start getting advanced classes more than white. They advance more.

Then looking at statistics we can see Asians have higher IQ and looking on Advanced programs we have Asian as the largest, Whites as second and others as third.

Bang one narrative suffers a blow. Then they start changing rules. "Asians are White". "We need to make it more equal" meaning removing asians from programs.

While these boths narrative fight we as whole suffer.

As I want the best players on Soccer I want the best players on Medical field or Math.

I really don't care if the whole Math department is Asian. I care about the results to the society.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#140

Post by tomp » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #133

tomp wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible that the average school provides insufficient challenge & motivation for the average student, so that rising expectations results in a rise of performance. It's also likely that an "advanced" programme was less tolerant to disruptions and required students to focus more. But regardless, that doesn't change the fact that there are difference between people, and they're shown very early in development. It…

No program was provided. The kids were just labelled. The label was a placebo, and it worked. Straw-man examples of differences in kids are cute but not helpful. The issue was the imbalance in NYC advanced programs was clearly racial, which begs some kind of correction. Or do we have to resort to "Black kids aren't ever smart enough?" Is that your argument?

> Or do we have to resort to "Black kids aren't ever smart enough?" Is that your argument?

This is a nasty lie that you just made up.