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Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

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Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#101
post #86

Mozilla please just give us a Firefox Pro that costs a few quid a month I make basically all my income via Firefox indirectly.. if you want a slice just ask for it, don't be creepy

Interesting idea. What would Firefox Pro offer to users?

Cloud sync of plugins/tabs. Pocket, filesharing between devices, their VPN nobody uses, Firefox monitor integration, earlier updates (i.e. you can still get the latest build by building from source, but prebuilt libraries first get supplied to Firefox pro),... Basically all the stuff they have acquired over the years, with few users but large support requirements. These are just the ideas I came up with in the spot

Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#102
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they go can together. Ads can be coupled with the content rather than the user, as they are in print, on the radio and on TV. What is incompatible with privacy is user stalking -- i.e. surveillance in the name of monitoring/improving ad effectiveness.

I'd argue that this works only because there is a hard stop. A newspaper can not track you even if it wanted to. On the web, contextual ads is where everyone begins as they "don't want to be evil". But ad monetized business models can make more money only in two ways - more users or more ads per user. Once you exhaust the first option for growth, the businesses inevitably pursue the second option because the web as a…

Exactly this. Public ad companies with shareholders cannot keep growing if their userbase stays as constant value and no other methods are used. And grow they must.

Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#103

Firefox, please ask on first launch — as you do for telemetry — if the user is ok with ads. The default being opt-out and later on a “sorry, we hear you, this was a mistake” doesn’t sound good. Mozilla Corporation, please figure out a way for users to directly donate to support Firefox. Not everybody realizes or knows that the donations on mozilla.org go to Mozilla Foundation and not to Mozilla Corporation. Not every…

Mozilla's "default search provider agreements" are worth upwards of $400 million a year. Mozilla Corporation doesn't need any more money, but they're a corporation...

Mozilla is sitting on around a billion dollars in assets and continues to have revenue around $400 million a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Affiliatio...

https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2019/mozilla-fdn-201...

Mozilla has had weasely language regarding their advertising agreements since at least 2014 when they announced their "ongoing search strategy," saying that Yahoo was going to be their "long term strategic partner." They then breached their contract with Yahoo in 2017, presumably because Google offered them a deal they couldn't refuse to be reinstated as the default to coincide with the Firefox Quantum release.

https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-feature...

https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/promoting-choice-and-inn...

Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#104
post #82
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was amazed/saddened that they laid off the Servo team. That seemed like the one really worthwhile improvement Mozilla had bet on in a decade. I use and appreciate Firefox, maybe it's partly nostalgia for when FF pushed the web experience forward.

Maintaining even one browser engine is an ungodly amount of work (see how even microsoft dropped the ball on that), let alone 2. Discontinuing Servo was the correct decision however sad it is. On the other hand, Firefox does incorporate more and more Rust into the browser, but reimplementing such a core part is simply infeasible.

I hear what you're saying, but at the same time what's the way forward for Mozilla and Firefox? Firefox either needs to be way more performant than other browsers, or needs to have some significant UI benefits over other major browsers (like it used to have with tabs and extensions). With great respect to Mozilla, I don't see either happening or even a path to either anymore.

Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#105

For revenue they should sell naming rights to their release versions like stadium naming rights. The name will also be in the executable "Firefox: vX.X TikTok"

"Damn, the Pepsi(TM) patch really leaks memory and crashes frequently." Seems like a recipe for bad publicity when ever there is an issue with a specific version.

There will always be something wrong with every version which is why there's always updates. You'd think that on HN people would realize that software is never finished.

Also you'd name minor and major versions, not patch versions.

Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#106

Firefox, please ask on first launch — as you do for telemetry — if the user is ok with ads. The default being opt-out and later on a “sorry, we hear you, this was a mistake” doesn’t sound good. Mozilla Corporation, please figure out a way for users to directly donate to support Firefox. Not everybody realizes or knows that the donations on mozilla.org go to Mozilla Foundation and not to Mozilla Corporation. Not every…

Mozilla's "default search provider agreements" are worth upwards of $400 million a year. Mozilla Corporation doesn't need any more money, but they're a corporation... Mozilla is sitting on around a billion dollars in assets and continues to have revenue around $400 million a year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Affiliatio... https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2019/mozilla-fdn-201... Mozilla ha…

If you look back on Mitchell's words about protecting Mozilla's independence from, e.g. Google: https://web.archive.org/web/20120105090543/https://www.compu...

... it would seem that 14 more years of eating out of Google's hands(with ever growing sums) has softened their resolve.

  "The things that make Mozilla and Firefox a success [are] the product, and the community that cares about it."

  First and foremost, we would protect those things," Baker said. "If the protection of those things would come into conflict with Google, or any of our search partners, we would opt for the community who built Firefox and love Firefox."
... would that it were so.

Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#107

After 19 years on Firefox I moved to Edge in August. While I always kicked the tires on Chrome and other browsers over the years, I never felt compelled to switch until now. I'm still on Edge and while it's a work in progress, I'm pretty happy with it. It just took a while to get everything setup how I like it. While ads definitely help keep me away, I left because the keyword shortcuts for search engines claim to wo…

I don't think Edge is advisable. It doesn't offer end to end encryption for all categories of synced data, its session ID persists across reboots and is hardware-based and their start page connects to approx. two million things. Including of course the standard of having search suggestions on and sent to a privacy unfriendly vendor. It's an amazing browser, probably just the best one atm if you don't care about priva…

You're correct. First, I find your analysis very well balanced. While I'm going to continue using Edge, you're "not wrong". I for one love my choices being criticized because that's how I've improved myself and my decision making through my life. I love informed people with a rational stance. Allow me to respond though with my reasons why I use it anyway.

My main reason for using it anyway is that I'm neck deep in Google's world, who I'm most worried about, and view perfect privacy as unattainable so I try to view most things as a larger effect overtaking a smaller effect. I need to get off my Google Account first, which applies to Maps, Youtube, Gmail and search. I use all of those. I view Google as having the most intimate view of who I am given they know where I go, watch, type, and look for. I'm making efforts. I'm moving to another email provider once I sort out how to transfer all my emails over. That'll go a long ways. That doesn't excuse privacy intrusions anywhere else, but Google is definitely my biggest issue. And the least trustworthy of all actors that I do business with.

For the browser itself, I balance privacy with other factors. I want a browser from a large vendor, capable of proper support over the longterm. Microsoft fits the bill there. Being my native browser doesn't hurt at all, it was Mozilla's development articles that opened my eyes to all the advantage that native browsers have over 3rd party. I also want performance if Firefox doesn't suit my uses any longer, the move to Chromium solved that. I agree with your assessment, I think it may be the best browser out now, discounting privacy.

I do keep Tor installed for any sensitive searches, which I do none of, but I keep it on my machine and phone (Onion Browser on iOS) just to remind me of how insecure most browsing is. Tor would be a good idea even for Firefox users. I do agree with the idea that the best privacy by default is a good idea, it's just not enough of a concern to overrule where Firefox and Edge are respectively today.

And lastly, I think there's room for improvement for everyone. I hope Edge continues to get better on the privacy front. I don't think any of them are cemented in their position, especially Edge as it feels unfinished in many ways on basic levels still.

Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#108
post #104
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintaining even one browser engine is an ungodly amount of work (see how even microsoft dropped the ball on that), let alone 2. Discontinuing Servo was the correct decision however sad it is. On the other hand, Firefox does incorporate more and more Rust into the browser, but reimplementing such a core part is simply infeasible.

I hear what you're saying, but at the same time what's the way forward for Mozilla and Firefox? Firefox either needs to be way more performant than other browsers, or needs to have some significant UI benefits over other major browsers (like it used to have with tabs and extensions). With great respect to Mozilla, I don't see either happening or even a path to either anymore.

I still find Firefox plenty extensible, as well as it is the most privacy oriented browser, hands down.

With containers, and tree style tabs/sideberry it gives a unique user experience. To me it is performant enough and has great adblocking through ublock origin (that is not in danger of removal by API changes, looking at you every single chromium fork).

Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting idea. What would Firefox Pro offer to users?

Cloud sync of plugins/tabs. Pocket, filesharing between devices, their VPN nobody uses, Firefox monitor integration, earlier updates (i.e. you can still get the latest build by building from source, but prebuilt libraries first get supplied to Firefox pro),... Basically all the stuff they have acquired over the years, with few users but large support requirements. These are just the ideas I came up with in the spot

This.

Re: Firefox Suggest (address bar based ads, currently limited to US)

#110
post #86

Mozilla please just give us a Firefox Pro that costs a few quid a month I make basically all my income via Firefox indirectly.. if you want a slice just ask for it, don't be creepy

They will end up trying to have their cake and eat it, taking money from both places. And after news like this one, many users would not want to support them, understandably.

They lost a big chunk of valuable (but not financially) user trust. It's really tricky to regain it, they would have to take a leap of faith, do "the right thing", and hope users will believe.

Or maybe we need to fork it and crowdfund (crowdhire?) firefox developers. And hope they will accept the risk of financial difficulties down the line. And there will be a long term trust/authority problem to solve - who makes decisions? But I would trust their devs personally, I think

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