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New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

nytimes.com

61–70 of 274 posts

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#61
Mixed feelings about moves like this. Am a product of a related system in another city some decades ago. The pressure to "de-stream" students in education in general has been an ongoing controversy for decades.

What bothers me about gifted programs is that they isolate the smartest kids from everyone else, and one can't help but think it's more to protect the system and everyone else from bored intelligent kids than to enrich their individual educations. IQ isn't a great proxy for much, but two or three standard deviations from the mean in populations of millions, you are likely dealing with different kinds of thinkers.

The skills the programs emphasized are focused on abstraction and complex problem solving - and not leadership where they could scale to benefit everyone. This turns kids into talent who will ultimately work for and be managed by more average peers, which makes it a remedial program for socializing exceptional kids into functioning cogs. It's like inventing fusion reactor to plow fields, or an F1 car to sit in traffic. I get that enrichment in education is something they might not be able to get at home and the schools are providing it, but they're providing what the average of the education bureaucracy can be persuaded is right for smart people to do based on cliches about scientists and professions.

There are good reasons to change how gifted programs operate, even putting phasing them out on the table, though the reasons in the article are ideological, which is practically the definition of what you have when you don't have experience - just the logic of an idea. NYC may do the right thing for the wrong reasons, and the benefits will be an unintentional side effect.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#62
Our oldest just started kindergarten and he is bored out of his mind. He can already read a little, he does basic addition, he even has a really good handle on some basic science facts (ask him about earthquakes and volcanoes some time) and they are spending time on learning shapes. His homework last night was "count to 20". Seriously, his preschool was more rigorous than this, yet somehow they also played a lot more. It's had a huge impact on his mood and energy levels, for no other reason than he doesn't have anything to look forward to when he gets there.

He doesn't need a gifted program to "maximize his potential". What he needs is an adaptable program that can meet him on his level to "minimize learning to hate school".

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#63

It's long been a fallacy that you can sort young kids into high or low performers. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of thing. By starting so young (kindergarten!) in NYC they were creating the division out of essentially nothing. Long ago somebody tried dividing an elementary school class into regular and advanced students. At the end of the year, the advanced students had done better. The selection was a random l…

Could you share a link to that random allocation of students into regular and advanced? Sounds fascinating, though not surprising: imagine the confidence hit of being told by the system you're not advanced.

Why not just tell ALL the students they’re advanced?

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#64
post #13

> But the highly selective and racially segregated program will be replaced for incoming students. Wow, using a word such as segregation, which has connotations of 'by design' sure lays bare their hand. Just to be clear, there is no segregation(of any kind) amongst the students in the program. In fact, there is no segregation at all. There's just not equal representation of the makey-uppy USA racial classifications.…

The problem for NYC apparently is that the largest ethnic group in the program was Asian.

Following the IQ distribution by races.

I can scream whatever I want about people being equal and have equal capabilities.

But that is a lie.

Genetics is a huge factor in disease, skills and behavior.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602...

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#65

I am generally quite liberal but I strongly disagree with he current strain of progressive education reform. There are inherent differences within the capabilities of students, we can detect these early, and we should use them to provide students with appropriate challenges. Our education system should provide avenues for top students to excel, ad hopefully these top students become the people who create businesses o…

> inherent differences within the capabilities of students citation needed. I agree students definition differ in abilities, but by and large you don't have to be super-smart to succeed in K-12.

The difficulty is set so that almost all students can succeed, so this doesn't contradict anything the parent post said.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#66
post #13

> But the highly selective and racially segregated program will be replaced for incoming students. Wow, using a word such as segregation, which has connotations of 'by design' sure lays bare their hand. Just to be clear, there is no segregation(of any kind) amongst the students in the program. In fact, there is no segregation at all. There's just not equal representation of the makey-uppy USA racial classifications.…

People like to blame society or the system.

Some of it is but there is also parental responsibility and small/immediate culture which has greater effect.

If you have parents that come from poor backgrounds and despite that produce kids who overrepresent in achievement, people in some corners like to brush that under a rug and anyone who highlights that is guilty of falling for the "model minority". Problem is, that's a cop-out and veers on crab mentality. Some subpopulations simply push their kids to study more and play less than others. That's just how it is. The parents may have two jobs, but still manage to instill an education mindset into them --a minority of these kids will look back and say that their childhoods were not fun, and that is likely true, but I don't think they'd be have a better life trudging away as a HS dropout or similar. And surely some parents overburden their kids to study "respected" professions. But that's a different problem.

Within a particular ethnicity or "race" some subpopulations have dedicated parents and others don't.

If I were born in the south to "hillbillies" my odds for landing in talented and gifted would go way down, not because of race, or ethnicity but because the culture of the parents and the immediate culture.

But take South Koreans 1st gen and compare them to Philippine 1st gen or Pole and Romanian and that's a no-no.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#67

Subtitle: "Students who are currently enrolled in gifted and talented classes will not be affected. But the highly selective and racially segregated program will be replaced for incoming students." The reasons can be debated, but it's a fact that on IQ tests, American blacks score about 1 standard deviation (15 points) below whites. A common threshold for a gifted program is an IQ of 130, 2SD above average. If you de…

My school system works around this my having four different testing methods: 1) iq/gma test 2) school standardized tests, same across state 3) school creativity tests, same across state 4) teacher recommendation

I think there are still racial and income disparities but these methods somewhat reduce the penalty suffered as measured on these tests.

I think the intent is to find truly smart kids and give them additional tools to develop their intelligence and potential.

If a kid is smart, but doesn’t know vocabulary because their parents both work and can’t afford tutors, then the gifted program is an opportunity to detect and help those kids.

This, of course, assumes that not all kids have equal ability. And I think there is some truth that intelligence is inherited.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#68

I am generally quite liberal but I strongly disagree with he current strain of progressive education reform. There are inherent differences within the capabilities of students, we can detect these early, and we should use them to provide students with appropriate challenges. Our education system should provide avenues for top students to excel, ad hopefully these top students become the people who create businesses o…

> inherent differences within the capabilities of students citation needed. I agree students definition differ in abilities, but by and large you don't have to be super-smart to succeed in K-12.

>you don't have to be super-smart to succeed in K-12.

Yeah, you don't have to be super smart to succeed in a warehouse-mentality K-12 system. In fact, it helps not to be. Wait, I think you just proved the benefit of advanced classes in K-12.

Re: New York City to Phase Out Its Gifted and Talented Program

#70
post #13

> But the highly selective and racially segregated program will be replaced for incoming students. Wow, using a word such as segregation, which has connotations of 'by design' sure lays bare their hand. Just to be clear, there is no segregation(of any kind) amongst the students in the program. In fact, there is no segregation at all. There's just not equal representation of the makey-uppy USA racial classifications.…

What an egregious choice of wording. I feel like the bystander in this PBF comic[1] when I see things like this.

[1]: https://pbfcomics.com/comics/deeply-held-beliefs/

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