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Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

underdogdevs.org

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Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#61

Post by moksly »

gatlin wrote: post #4
moksly wrote: post #3

I’ve worked with a few former criminals who spent time in prison for things they did in their youths. Keep in mind that I’m Scandinavian and our justice system is very, very, different. But all of them had been young and unadjusted and eventually wound up hurting someone over something stupid. Having matured and now in their 30’ies, none of that past life remained in any way in my dealings with them. Obviously this i…

The single best tool for rehabilitation, for the convict and the society around them, is meaningful activity. People hurt each other for reasons that are often as sympathetic as they are ultimately intolerable. I think it's wonderful that you had a great experience and shared it because the stigma needs to go. The inclination to follow the law may be tangentially related to a basic ability to follow directions, grant…

I think it’s just a really hard nut to crack. Because even if you remove the bias and stigma, corporations are at their core, risk adverse.

I’ve met these people in the public sector where we have policies in place to employ the people who are hard to employ and focus on not discriminating people because of what they bring. But the fact that we have those policies and that focus speaks a lot about how hard of an issue it is.

Because if you’ve committed crime, you’ll simply be considered a more risky hire, and we don’t like that. The most expensive mistake a manager can make in my country is hiring the wrong person. This is where a lot of the discrimination against former criminals, people with different sort of diagnosis’s, people over 60 and so on come from.

Often the risk assessment isn’t actually true. Because a lot of these people will be far more loyal to your organisation than a fresh hire out of university, but the risk assessment will still favour the young person, and if someone experience and “normal” in their late 30ies or early 40ies is in competition, well…

Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#62

Post by nickthemagicman »

ditonal wrote: post #30
endisneigh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's wrong with blue-collar work? tech elitism never fails to amuse me. anyway, there is a push to do the same for doctors [1] and lawyers [2], so your point is moot anyway. the problem is that with credentialed backgrounds it will never be as easy so it will always seem like tech is more accessible, which it is inherently. finally, with respect to incarceration and being a part of a profession, unfortunately many…

You literally directly contradict yourself. You link to two pages that have absolutely nothing to do with getting formerly incarcerated people into law/medicine, then immediately concede that there isn’t an effort to do so because they’re not welcome in those fields. Your failure to keep two paragraphs of texts consistent and coherent badly undermines your overall point. It’s pretty clear tech as a whole is a lot les…

This is crystal clear, to the point, and well put. The response to your comment makes no sense and is all over the place.

Anything that starts with 'there's a lot to unpack ' is going to be mental gymnastics communicated in a patronizing tone to defend someone's ego.

Just wanted to say I agree with all of your points and think it does tech a disservice to treat it like a blue collar job instead of a profession but at the same time the lack of professional strictness has led to alot of rapid innovation.

So it's hard to tell what's right.

Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#63

Post by nickthemagicman »

auslegung wrote: post #39
nomdep wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong, except that, usually in a blue collar job, everyone is replaceable and the salaries are low to average. Yes, all of this come from fear of not being able to make a living as a programmer in 10 years

> Yes, all of this come from fear of not being able to make a living as a programmer in 10 years Caveat: I'm in the USA, so what I'm about to say may only apply here. I don't know the market for software engineers outside the USA. In 10 years, you and I will have 10 more years of experience than we do now. We will probably be twice as valuable to a company. Anyone who joins the field today will forever be behind us i…

Does experience matter in technology that much?

Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#64

Post by nickthemagicman »

cletus wrote: post #49
nomdep wrote: post #8

Are developers the new blue-collar workers? I haven’t seen a similar program for aspiring lawyers, doctors or accountants. Aren’t we too eager to commoditize the profession?

This comment just doesn't sit right with me. Obviously there's the issue that it reeks of tech elitism but there's more to it than that. Like not everyone needs to pass a FAANG hiring crap shoot. You can give someone useful skills with which they can earn a living. As for accountants, well there are levels here too. Bookkeeping being one entry-level route. "Accountant" also means many things, like it's often conflate…

>Whatever you may think of us software engineers, we're nowhere near the same level as a doctor in terms of required training. And that's all there is to it. I mean no one figures out how to remove an appendix when they're 12 in their parents' garage

Kids arent chopping organs out in a garage because thats a future serial killer.

Kids make make medical breakthroughs all the time.

https://www.cnn.com/2014/08/14/health/8-whiz-kids-future-med...

Don't sell yourself short. I was a premed and comp sci dual degree. Computer Science was way more challenging than the pre med stuff.

Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#65

Post by petr25102018 »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #63
auslegung wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, all of this come from fear of not being able to make a living as a programmer in 10 years Caveat: I'm in the USA, so what I'm about to say may only apply here. I don't know the market for software engineers outside the USA. In 10 years, you and I will have 10 more years of experience than we do now. We will probably be twice as valuable to a company. Anyone who joins the field today will forever be behind us i…

Does experience matter in technology that much?

Exactly. We see it again and again that years of experience don't matter unless it is with a specific tech, and tech gets replaced all the time.

Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#66

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

Although I support the idea, the web site seems a bit … sparse … to me.

This is an area that I know well. I’ve been working with folks like this for decades.

One huge problem with rehabilitation and reentry programs, is a fairly significant level of sketchy behavior. Many times, these efforts start from a good place, but fall victim to corruption.

It’s difficult to work with folks that have criminal backgrounds, but it can be quite gratifying. The challenges are real, but there are many, many people that are willing to work hard to climb out of a hole. It’s incredibly rewarding to help those folks.

But there are always a few that have no interest in changing their spots, and they can really piss in the punch bowl. It’s important to be ready for these people. This kind of work is not for the faint of heart. Tough room.

Also, I’m not too thrilled about the site conflating “disadvantaged” folks with ex-cons.

They are quite different. Although ex-cons are a subset of disadvantaged people, they are a pretty small percentage, and present radically different challenges from other folks that suffer from things like poverty, prejudice, and lack of opportunity.

Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#67

Post by endisneigh »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #62
ditonal wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You literally directly contradict yourself. You link to two pages that have absolutely nothing to do with getting formerly incarcerated people into law/medicine, then immediately concede that there isn’t an effort to do so because they’re not welcome in those fields. Your failure to keep two paragraphs of texts consistent and coherent badly undermines your overall point. It’s pretty clear tech as a whole is a lot les…

This is crystal clear, to the point, and well put. The response to your comment makes no sense and is all over the place. Anything that starts with 'there's a lot to unpack ' is going to be mental gymnastics communicated in a patronizing tone to defend someone's ego. Just wanted to say I agree with all of your points and think it does tech a disservice to treat it like a blue collar job instead of a profession but at…

> treat it like a blue collar job instead of a profession

Blue collar work isn’t a profession?

Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#68

Post by nickthemagicman »

endisneigh wrote: post #67
nickthemagicman wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is crystal clear, to the point, and well put. The response to your comment makes no sense and is all over the place. Anything that starts with 'there's a lot to unpack ' is going to be mental gymnastics communicated in a patronizing tone to defend someone's ego. Just wanted to say I agree with all of your points and think it does tech a disservice to treat it like a blue collar job instead of a profession but at…

> treat it like a blue collar job instead of a profession Blue collar work isn’t a profession?

it's my impression that professionals are business people lawyers doctors etc

Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#69

Post by mettamage »

moksly wrote: post #61
gatlin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The single best tool for rehabilitation, for the convict and the society around them, is meaningful activity. People hurt each other for reasons that are often as sympathetic as they are ultimately intolerable. I think it's wonderful that you had a great experience and shared it because the stigma needs to go. The inclination to follow the law may be tangentially related to a basic ability to follow directions, grant…

I think it’s just a really hard nut to crack. Because even if you remove the bias and stigma, corporations are at their core, risk adverse. I’ve met these people in the public sector where we have policies in place to employ the people who are hard to employ and focus on not discriminating people because of what they bring. But the fact that we have those policies and that focus speaks a lot about how hard of an issu…

> corporations are at their core, risk adverse.

I'm even experiencing this. And I'm a "normal" person by many accounts (graduated from uni, no crime, little experience, etc.).

I can't imagine how tough it must be for people that committed a crime in the past.

Re: Underdog Devs: supporting formerly incarcerated and disadvantaged aspiring devs

#70

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

For those interested, in New York, we have Pursuit.org[0].

It was founded by the StackExchange folks.

I wanted to work with them, but they weren't particularly interested in my tech stack (I do Apple development in Swift).

Good folks.

[0] https://www.pursuit.org

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