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Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

paweldu.dev

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Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#21

Post by theonemind »

civilized wrote: post #5

I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack.

I used vim as my primary editor for about 2 years. It was definitely the fastest way to edit text. However, editing text is pretty minor compared to time spent thinking. For me personally, I just find moded editing slightly grating. It would also be faster if I moved around at a break-neck sprint all of the time, but slightly tiresome and unpleasant. I had the same experience with vim. It was fast, tiresome, and unpleasant. Humans don't deal well with exceptions and moded interfaces. The background hum of hitting escape and confirming my mode or occasionally hitting keys in the wrong mode was just grating.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#22

Post by afiori »

rendall wrote: post #19
civilized wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bringing up the old mouse makes this conversation sound so dated - as I said, I use a trackpad. Specifically, like millions of others, I work on a MacBook Pro with an incredibly precise trackpad right under the keyboard. I move my hand to and from that trackpad in about 0.1s, and I can click on anything I want in less than half a second. "Rich intentions in a few keystrokes" doesn't sound competitive with that IMO.

I'd happily race using vim against anyone using any pointer device. Your very fast 0.1s accumulates over the day, the week, the year. Versus never moving your hand away from the keyboard.

trackpads are the keyboard, on ThinkPad laptop for example you can use it entirely with only your thumbs.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#23

Post by jiggawatts »

bluedays wrote: post #9
civilized wrote: post #5

I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack.

Then don't. Just learn the basics. Learn how to use insert mode, edit some files, ignore anything not directly relevant. Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. You'll learn a few shortcuts, because it would be nice to delete an entire line, or just look at the end of the file. What do you know `dd`, and `G` respectively do…

People say things like this, as if other text editors don't have the same functions. The alternative is not "notepad.exe", it's Textpad, VS Code, or IntelliJ IDEA.

Delete an entire line: CTRL-Shift-K in VS Code.

Or just look at the end of the file: Ctrl-End in most editors.

Etc...

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#24

Post by abhinav22 »

dustintrex wrote: post #20
jpe90 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. Imho there are strictly better options than vim for this nowadays for people who are not already invested in vim. Sublime text is easier for people that prefer GUIs. For CLI, Kakoune has better discoverability, better thought/more consistent commands, and actually usable colorschemes…

The great thing about vi(m) is that it's always there . SSH'd into some random server and need to edit some random config? vim. And Sublime is vim with a user-friendly-ish GUI wrapped around it.

Does sublime support vim keys?

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#25

Post by bravetraveler »

civilized wrote: post #5

I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack.

Customizing can definitely be a time sink, and I tend to agree.

It's not portable!

I'd rather know/use the defaults, there's benefit to be had there. Most importantly for me, it will be on every server I ever have to log into/maintain.

GUI editors won't, and the hassle getting the output to where I need it doesn't fit well with workflows like mine.

Also... the config management stuff I write (YAML/Python+Jinja) is well enough supported as-is. Don't need much more than indentation preservation...

There's always a pane available to the side for ansible-doc/manual pages as a reference.

The only unusual thing I carry around with me is this:

  alias vimtabs="vim -c ':tab all'"
It just makes it easier to open many files in the same editor with simple shell globbing.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#26

Post by [deleted] »

civilized wrote: post #12
jpe90 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. Imho there are strictly better options than vim for this nowadays for people who are not already invested in vim. Sublime text is easier for people that prefer GUIs. For CLI, Kakoune has better discoverability, better thought/more consistent commands, and actually usable colorschemes…

Yeah. It's pretty easy to delete a line in Sublime, and contrary to CLI fan wisdom, a single accurate trackpad gesture is simpler and faster than the barrage of commands needed to jump to a particular line. The studies that "prove" CLIs are faster than GUIs are decades old now, and my experience says they're obsolete.

[deleted]

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#27

Post by gegtik »

civilized wrote: post #5

I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack.

same here. vim is on every machine that I need, and if I become accustomed to non-standard bindings now I am burdened with context switching between personal-vim and standard-vim. I'd rather adapt to stock standard

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#28

Post by junon »

abhinav22 wrote: post #24
dustintrex wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The great thing about vi(m) is that it's always there . SSH'd into some random server and need to edit some random config? vim. And Sublime is vim with a user-friendly-ish GUI wrapped around it.

Does sublime support vim keys?

Yes but I've yet to come across an implementation that gets it right.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#29

Post by unrealhoang »

civilized wrote: post #16
echelon wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vim movements allow you to compose rich intentions with a matter of a few keystrokes. I find it very hard to believe that can be beat with a mouse unless someone is using gestures. More than anything, it's about not switching devices. Typing feels like playing the keyboard. Switching to the mouse feels like having to pick up a trombone between keys. (I know that's a bit dramatic of an analogy, but...)

Bringing up the old mouse makes this conversation sound so dated - as I said, I use a trackpad. Specifically, like millions of others, I work on a MacBook Pro with an incredibly precise trackpad right under the keyboard. I move my hand to and from that trackpad in about 0.1s, and I can click on anything I want in less than half a second. "Rich intentions in a few keystrokes" doesn't sound competitive with that IMO.

It's all about uninterrupted experience, I don't want to move my hand anywhere off the home row and then move back again, it feels clunky.

Regarding competitiveness, with a bit of get used to, you can muscle memory things like: "remove content inside this bracket (), or "", or block {} and place me into insert mode so I can start typing new content" in 3 keystrokes. I don't see how searching manually for start and end then select with mouse/trackpad can ever be competitive to that.

Re: Vim Anti-Patterns That Cause Beginners To:Quit

#30

Post by NegativeLatency »

abhinav22 wrote: post #24
dustintrex wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The great thing about vi(m) is that it's always there . SSH'd into some random server and need to edit some random config? vim. And Sublime is vim with a user-friendly-ish GUI wrapped around it.

Does sublime support vim keys?

A lot of vim/vi plug-ins are buggy and support just enough to really drive you crazy
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