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Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

economist.com

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Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#541

Post by jobu »

piggybox wrote: post #538
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of them don’t give a shit about the reputation of FB This is close to a straw man argument. Nobody claims users will abandon Facebook. The article posits, instead, strengthening headwinds. Headwinds in hiring (there is already a double-digit premium Facebook must pay for talent). From recurring whistleblowing, and its impact on morale and productivity. Headwinds in projects and partnerships, like Libre/Diem be…

Microsoft is still No.2 company in terms of market cap. Its handling things more softly doesn't mean it has sharply less power.

Microsoft flat-lined for over a decade after the antitrust lawsuit. They completely missed mobile and nearly missed cloud. They've had to do a 180 on open source and they've had to offer some tools free of charge for small or independent developers.

Lately they've actually done really well, especially as Google, Amazon, and Facebook have stumbled with privacy and reputation. There was a while though were M$ was the definition of EvilCorp

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#542

Post by tdeck »

throwaway00010 wrote: post #475
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of them don’t give a shit about the reputation of FB This is close to a straw man argument. Nobody claims users will abandon Facebook. The article posits, instead, strengthening headwinds. Headwinds in hiring (there is already a double-digit premium Facebook must pay for talent). From recurring whistleblowing, and its impact on morale and productivity. Headwinds in projects and partnerships, like Libre/Diem be…

I used to work at Facebook and I agree with this. Some anecdotal notes on motivation headwinds: - Talking to more senior friends, both within the company and with offers to join— few people want to join product, and those who do would usually rather join Oculus and not one of the apps. Lots more interest in infra. Working to raise engagement metrics and the news cycle are always factors behind this. - I know plenty o…

Honestly, a lot of these things describe Google too. Most people don't want to work on ads (the core business). Since it's a bigger company, there are more product roles that aren't ads.

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#543

Post by FormerBandmate »

zaphar wrote: post #395
ethbr0 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd hesitate to generalize AOL's fall into Facebook's future. AOL's core proposition was being better than the Internet (more curated, coherent, and faster). When the web and internet exploded in size and scale, AOL's value evaporated. The dumb mergers and other mistakes were window dressing on this landscape transformation. And for years (decades? still?) afterwards, people used AOL Instant Messager (AIM), because i…

I actually think in a way one of Facebooks core proposition is being the internet for most people which is not that far off from AOL. The similarity here is that no one knows what is going to render FB obsolete right now. Just like no one knew what was going to do the same for AOL. AOL lost in part I believe because they were not really able to transition from Dialup "internet" Provider to Content Aggregator when bro…

AOL also had to deal with the Time Warner merger when they had to be laser focused on the transition to broadband. Without that, billions of people could be using AOL today

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#544

Post by JohnBooty »

throwawayboise wrote: post #321
wayoutthere wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But ditching my FB account entirely means I'd lose access to dozens of people I wouldn't have a great way of contacting otherwise. That used to be a fear of mine, but after deleting my account I’ve found it to be a core feature. It forces me to be intentional with my relationships; if I want to stay in touch with someone I have to make the effort. Otherwise, the relationship is likely more parasocial than actively…

Agree. Everyone who is on Facebook has email, and a mobile phone. If sending (or answering) an email or a text message or making a phone call is too much work, what kind of friendship are you really worried about maintaining?

You could say that about any medium.

"If writing them a physical letter is too much work, what kind of friendship are you really worried about maintaining?"

That sounds strawman-y, but I have a (annoying) family member who legitimately expresses this thought regularly.

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#545

Post by oarabbus_ »

ethbr0 wrote: post #535
oarabbus_ wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Facebook's network effect was overwhelmed twice, once by instagram and again by whatsapp This doesn't seem accurate, do you have evidence to back up this claim? Instagram had 30 million users and no revenue upon acquisition. Facebook had over a billion, and billions in revenues.

Growth, and especially growth in younger demographics, is probably the metric Facebook was looking at.

Right, that's why they bought instagram. But that's a far cry from the claim OP made their "network effect was overwhelmed"

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#546

Post by JohnBooty »

webmaven wrote: post #499
soylentcola wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you can switch email hosts or roll your own. With some more modern problems (getting marked as spam if you're not recognized) aside, you weren't forced to keep using your @aol.com or @yahoo.com or @hotmail.com accounts in order to communicate with people on those services via email. With Facebook, it doesn't matter how much you dislike the company or how good some competitor is. You still can't talk with people o…

Arguably, Gmail is currently the email provider with the strongest network effect due to all the ways it ties in to Android and the rest of the Google ecosystem. Worth noting that Gmail also 'solved' spam, which was the strongest reason to change email addresses/providers.

Those are powerful reasons to stick to Gmail. One is a legitimately good and useful feature; the other is a rather shady attempt at artificial lock-in, IMO.

But neither of those things are network effect.

"Network effect" refers specifically to "the phenomenon by which the value or utility a user derives from a good or service depends on the number of users of compatible products."

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#547

Post by piggybox »

goatlover wrote: post #102
geodel wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where will that young liberal staff go work for? I suspect once too much of good life perks are not available at FB maybe their outlook itself change a bit.

Some other tech giant with similar issues that are not getting as bad a press at the moment.

Yup, you see the problem

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#548

Post by frakkingcylons »

ditonal wrote: post #290
dont__panic wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess that they mean 10% or more total compensation versus comparable positions elsewhere. But I could also see this meaning $10k a year or more because 10% TC is such an insane number. In my experience, Facebook's offers do tend to beat Google's by $10k or so. But it's all so random and all over the place that it's tough to know if that's a consistent number.

Yeah it's not even true that FB is paying a premium. A thread full of people complaining about misinformation happily posting inaccurate information about Facebook. Go look at levels.fyi. Facebook pays close to market for senior engineers (~450k), more or less in line with companies like Uber, Robinhood, Twitter, Pinterest, LinkedIn, etc. In fact, Facebook doesn't even crack the top 5 on levels for senior SWE comp so…

> Uber had a woman complain about not getting a jacket in her size

You have a curiously selective memory if that's what you took away from Fowler's post.

Her manager propositions her for sex on her first day. HR gives the manager a pass because he's a high performer and they claim it's his first offense.

Only it wasn't his first offense, multiple other women reported him for inappropriate behavior in the past.

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#549

Post by piggybox »

tediousdemise wrote: post #482
unethical_ban wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think HN needs a thread dedicated to exploring the word "censor". If you think it means "any deletion of content" then I support some forms of censorship. If you think it means "the prohibition of the possession of thought or the ability to transmit that thought via your own mechanisms", then I am against it.

When content gets deleted or hidden, it inhibits the ability to transmit that thought, so I fail to see your distinction. Censorship is censorship. "Good censorship" and "bad censorship" is a slippery slope. The only type of content that should be censored in a given jurisdiction is content that is against the law. What should be against the law is an entirely different discussion to be had amongst inhabitants of tha…

While you guys are talking about censorship, I just realize how many comments in the thread have been in effect partially "censored" on HN with lighter and lighter font color...

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#550

Post by eropple »

chadlavi wrote: post #524
JohnBooty wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users would need an order of magnitude superior alternative, and most critically, users would need to move en mass. Yeah. Network effect. Arguably nothing on Earth has ever had such a powerful network effect as Facebook. I dislike FB for all of the usual reasons, plus a few of my own. But I still have an FB account. I don't check it very often, and I've got notifications turned off. But ditching my FB account entirel…

You don't actually care about those people if the only way you have of contacting them is Facebook. Just pull the trigger and dump it.

This is a profoundly presumptuous and shitty claim.

Some people use Facebook to communicate. To not use Messenger is to not communicate with them. And some of us like people. Sorry?

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