Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#71

Post by beamatronic » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:54 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #59

Someone1234 wrote: post #49

Because Tesla effectively doesn't have AEB while AutoPilot is enabled. In a Tesla AEB should be an entirely self-contained ("dumber") system. Its only job should be to look for any ground-level object ahead and brake. It should do this using simpler but more reliable ("dumber") techniques like forward bumper-level radar or camera parallax, not NN/deep learning/object recognition/AI. To use an analogy, AEB should be l…

Does Tesla even have a radar?

Yes, at least some do, and they recently disabled it in a recent software update

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#72

Post by brokenmachine » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #48

choeger wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if the computer can recognize the situation it can always slow down, alert the driver, and eventually stop. That's the nice thing about cars: There's always a safe default mode. I suspect that the computer cannot recognize this problem reliably, though.

Slowing down to under 40mph is not a safe thing to do on a highway and is illegal in many places. And suddenly slowing down is extra unsafe when there's a car right behind you that's also being blinded.

So just keep on trucking along at full speed with your eyes closed, you reckon.

Spoken like a true Tesla engineer.

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#73

Post by fwip » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 11:03 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #49

Because Tesla effectively doesn't have AEB while AutoPilot is enabled. In a Tesla AEB should be an entirely self-contained ("dumber") system. Its only job should be to look for any ground-level object ahead and brake. It should do this using simpler but more reliable ("dumber") techniques like forward bumper-level radar or camera parallax, not NN/deep learning/object recognition/AI. To use an analogy, AEB should be l…

Notably, Tesla cars have never used Lidar, which is a lot more precise than radar, but it costs more.

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#74

Post by fwip » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

shiftpgdn wrote: post #25

It always bugs me they trot out the Mountain View crash as an example where a Model X struck an unmarked and unprotected jersey barrier end in what visually looks like a traffic lane. Further that multiple human drivers had hit the divider in the same spot and a near fatal accident occurred literally the next day into the same barrier. If I put a brick wall on the freeway and paint it to look like a tunnel ala wil-e-…

Were any of the person-driven accidents fatal, do you know?

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#75

Post by mindslight » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 11:07 PM UTC

myself248 wrote: post #63

mindslight wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slowing down to under 40mph is not a safe thing to do on a highway and is illegal in many places. And suddenly slowing down is extra unsafe when there's a car right behind you that's also being blinded.

Slowing down on a highway is required by law in many areas, in the presence of emergency vehicles.

Yes, by 10-20mph. Not down to <40mph. I thought it was a smart idea when I first saw signs about it on a road trip many years ago, and incorporated it into my own driving before the law had been widely adopted. I aim to do most of my driving at less busy times, so I often end up moving over a lane even if I'm not in the rightmost lane. And actually it's a good idea to do the same for all stopped vehicles, regardless of lights - amateurs are even more likely to make mistakes.

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#76

Post by bb123 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 11:08 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #69

I read in another HN thread, that some Tesla owners have experienced "ghost braking," and have adopted the technique of holding their foot just above the accelerator, in order to counteract it. When I read that, I made a mental note to slow down a bit if a Tesla gets behind me, so they will pass me. Usually that's not a problem, as I don't drive particularly fast. I don't know if this is an issue with other brands of…

I’ve experienced this in a Tesla. It slammed the brakes on without warning in the middle of a freeway and dropped our speed from 70 to 30 in seconds. Luckily there wasn’t a truck behind us otherwise we would have all died. Tesla fans tend to waive stories like that away with “yeah it happens sometimes” which I think is a pretty astonishing response to what really felt like attempted murder by a car.

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#77

Post by mindslight » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 11:09 PM UTC

brokenmachine wrote: post #72

mindslight wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slowing down to under 40mph is not a safe thing to do on a highway and is illegal in many places. And suddenly slowing down is extra unsafe when there's a car right behind you that's also being blinded.

So just keep on trucking along at full speed with your eyes closed, you reckon. Spoken like a true Tesla engineer.

I specifically laid out what I do, and what I believe most other people do, as humans having to cope with increased danger. I'm in no way trying to defend Tesla, but rather pointing out a general road hazard that needlessly exists and that perhaps isn't being handled gracefully by automation. This idea that a vehicle can always fall back to stopping comes from the same mistaken place as asserting that a human driver can take over at a moment's notice.

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#78

Post by letmeinhere » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 11:14 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #49

Because Tesla effectively doesn't have AEB while AutoPilot is enabled. In a Tesla AEB should be an entirely self-contained ("dumber") system. Its only job should be to look for any ground-level object ahead and brake. It should do this using simpler but more reliable ("dumber") techniques like forward bumper-level radar or camera parallax, not NN/deep learning/object recognition/AI. To use an analogy, AEB should be l…

I like the 2-factor analogy for the driver-assist technologies, which are ordinarily framed as more primitive automation, rather than the low-cost safety boons that they are.

The Level 3 automation systems that Tesla and Uber built rely on two factors too, but they invert them, expecting disengaged humans to snap to alertness at super-human speed, which is just not how our brains work. So of course the second factor only exists as a legal cover to reduce their liability, which is all these players care about as far as safety is concerned.

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#79

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 11:17 PM UTC

sharkmerry wrote: post #56

Zhenya wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, your hypothesis makes no sense. There are WAY more cars sold by other brands, so more Tesla incidents is even more galling. Using autopilot should only HELP the auto braking not make it worse. Other systems use radar and camera. They are thoroughly tested by the OEMs and suppliers to strict tolerances. Meanwhile Tesla is shipping beta software and having people test it. Including removing radar because of “pha…

OPs point was tesla drivers are more likely to use the features. More cars being sold by other brands, could refute that but it doesnt necessarily. Its about the rate of usage of the software X total sales X avg. miles driven

[deleted]

Re: Why didn’t auto-braking stop these crashes?

#80

Post by kbos87 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 11:21 PM UTC

lacker wrote: post #16

Automatic braking doesn't get much attention, but it seems like something that could be incredibly valuable if it got to the "clearly better than human" level. This is purely anecdotal, but I find the automatic braking system on my Mazda CX-9 to be fairly annoying. Once every couple months or so, it has a false alarm and brakes while blaring out alerts, in an urban environment where I don't observe anything out of th…

Automatic Emergency Braking is amazing and it never gets talked about. I’ve logged 40k miles in my 2019 Subaru with Eyesight and it very reliably notices dangerous situations. Other vehicles hard stopping in front of me is the most common occurrence, and it always hits that sweet spot of me being glad it alerted me so I could brake before it had to.

I’ve had one instance where it went straight to braking - I took a right turn at low speed onto a neighborhood street and encountered a cyclist in my lane coming quickly and directly towards me, about 20 feet away. The car stopped itself. It was jarring but I wouldn’t say it was an overreaction.

I can only think of 1-2 cases where it’s truly given a false alarm - both at low speed on a city street with thick steam coming from a manhole in front of me, which Subaru says in the manual is a difficult situation. Both times I only got a momentary audible alarm; tap the brakes and it stops.

The reliability of AEB definitely varies by manufacturer, but I’m impressed by it.