Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#401

Post by WalterBright » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #326

snowwrestler wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft went flat for a decade after their antitrust trial. They lost many markets where they had significant footholds, struggled to attract and retain top talent, and struggled to enter new markets. They kept making money from Windows, Office, etc. But the tech industry exploded in growth around them, leaving them behind in many ways (technologically, financially, culturally).

One notable exception was video games. In retrospect the success of the Xbox is extremely strange.

You'd probably enjoy the book "Renegades of the Empire" by Drummond.

https://www.amazon.com/Renegades-Empire-Software-Revolution-...

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#402

Post by gwd » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #230

mkr-hn wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been so long since a company reached Facebook's heights and fell that a whole generation doesn't know what it looks like. AOL was the Facebook of its time: a joke to system admins, a default ban on small game servers and IRC channels. Meanwhile, most people had no idea anyone had a problem with AOL. Like with Facebook, there were people reporting on its follies like Observers.net[0], but it mostly went unremarke…

I'd hesitate to generalize AOL's fall into Facebook's future. AOL's core proposition was being better than the Internet (more curated, coherent, and faster). When the web and internet exploded in size and scale, AOL's value evaporated. The dumb mergers and other mistakes were window dressing on this landscape transformation. And for years (decades? still?) afterwards, people used AOL Instant Messager (AIM), because i…

> Users would need an order of magnitude superior alternative

Is there currently any alternative? All the alternatives I'm aware of ATM are Twitter clones; i.e., meant to be public microblogs, rather than restricted audience microblogs.

Recommend me a good alternative and I'll see if I can get some of my network to join it. (And don't say "Mastodon" unless they've added a FB-like mode where you can restrict your posts to a specific set of people.)

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#403

Post by maxwell » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #360

rctec wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The success of Xbox resulted from what was essentially an internal con job. It survived to launch and succeeded because the team responsible managed to keep a straight face about several important lies about what Xbox would be to the rest of the company's leadership and BG himself.

> several important lies Can you please elaborate? I'm pretty familiar with Xbox's history but I'm not aware of any lies.

Maybe referring to dropping Windows from the original Xbox:

https://www.shacknews.com/article/95635/how-the-original-xbo...

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#404

Post by amatecha » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

wayoutthere wrote: post #292

JohnBooty wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users would need an order of magnitude superior alternative, and most critically, users would need to move en mass. Yeah. Network effect. Arguably nothing on Earth has ever had such a powerful network effect as Facebook. I dislike FB for all of the usual reasons, plus a few of my own. But I still have an FB account. I don't check it very often, and I've got notifications turned off. But ditching my FB account entirel…

> But ditching my FB account entirely means I'd lose access to dozens of people I wouldn't have a great way of contacting otherwise. That used to be a fear of mine, but after deleting my account I’ve found it to be a core feature. It forces me to be intentional with my relationships; if I want to stay in touch with someone I have to make the effort. Otherwise, the relationship is likely more parasocial than actively…

Yeah, I haven't deleted my account, but I don't log in anymore (and blocked all FB-related domains on my Pi-Hole). I still keep in touch with a lot of people, but it's definitely challenging. I've just totally lost contact with TONS of people, ones who I'd love to keep talking with here and there. I accept the "loss" and do what I can to regain contact with people. Drag them kicking & screaming to stuff like Signal, Matrix, Mastodon, etc. Honestly I focus even harder on these alternatives because I think they are more important than ever.

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#405

Post by skybrian » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #230

mkr-hn wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been so long since a company reached Facebook's heights and fell that a whole generation doesn't know what it looks like. AOL was the Facebook of its time: a joke to system admins, a default ban on small game servers and IRC channels. Meanwhile, most people had no idea anyone had a problem with AOL. Like with Facebook, there were people reporting on its follies like Observers.net[0], but it mostly went unremarke…

I'd hesitate to generalize AOL's fall into Facebook's future. AOL's core proposition was being better than the Internet (more curated, coherent, and faster). When the web and internet exploded in size and scale, AOL's value evaporated. The dumb mergers and other mistakes were window dressing on this landscape transformation. And for years (decades? still?) afterwards, people used AOL Instant Messager (AIM), because i…

One possibility is that a Facebook account becomes something that most people have but they seldom use, like a LinkedIn account.

The news feed could get less interesting, resulting in fewer visits.

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#406

Post by zenithd » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

deltree7 wrote: post #172

dogman144 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook risks losing its young, liberal staff. Spot on, and not just young, liberal. Old-ish and privacy minded. Mid-aged and right. Two crowds are critical though: - this is the talent pool: college campuses. FB's changing tone (sponsoring scholarships, sponsoring scholarships for non tech -> tech transfers, etc) is evident. - this is the management pool: mid-30's to 40's, married, coastal EMs or PMs, that have t…

HN delusion about their own self-importance is strong on this one. There are millions of talented Engineers who'd die to work for Facebook, Google, Netflix. Top 0.1%ile of 8,000,000,000 is 8 Million. Most woke, liberal graduates were protected from competition from other countries due to their location advantage. Ironically these woke employees are demanding remote work, displaying their usual cluelessness about unin…

> Top 0.1%ile of 8,000,000,000 is 8 Million.

"All of humanity" a silly denominator.

There are fewer than 30 million software engineers in the world [1], so at 0.1% we're talking about 30,000 people worldwide. That's... not a lot of people. At all. There are waaaaaay more than 30K "we'll pay anything for the best" SWE positions in the world.

> Most woke, liberal graduates were protected from competition from other countries due to their location advantage.

On the contrary, I think those "liberal graduates" understand the US SWE labor market better than you do.

Tech is one of the least protected occupations in the United States. Driving up the supply of tech talent has been an explicit goal of the United States' immigration policy for 30+ years. Unlike medicine or engineering, there's no licensing barriers. And outsourcing has been an option for decades.

A lot of the labor market disruption you're predicting already happened. Stuff that could be effectively outsourced to IIT grads was outsourced over a decade ago. At this point, I'd bet good money that over the last 10 years or so automation (aka cloud and devops) was responsible for more IT layoffs than outsourcing.

> Ironically these woke employees are demanding remote work, displaying their usual cluelessness about unintended consequences.

I thought this would happen as well, but data seems to suggest exactly the opposite.

Also, while we're on the topic, outsourcing and skimping on engineering compensation obviously works -- just look at how IBM has taken over the tech industry while domestic firms like the FAANGs have languished ;-)

--

[1] https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/number-software...

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#407

Post by grvdrm » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #387

Frondo wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to nitpick, and not arguing with the sense of sadness you feel -- I sympathize -- but I wouldn't call "passively keeping in touch" with thousands of people "relationships." It's something, but I'm not sure what, it seems like we may not have a good word for "casual strangers," the level of familiarity beneath acquaintance that we know because we met them once and then know only what they post in one social…

but I wouldn't call "passively keeping in touch" with thousands of people "relationships." It's something, but I'm not sure what, it seems like we may not have a good word for "casual strangers," Well, strictly speaking... it's a relationship, just a very casual kind. They are not intrinsically bad. The healthiness of it can vary widely. It's a very individual thing. The relevant questions to ask one's self would inc…

I admire you for saying that you genuinely enjoy/extract value from seeing "so-and-so from high school just had a baby, or whatever" on Facebook. I'm on the side of the others in that I don't feel like I lost anything from deleting my FB account (except I can't remember birthdays anymore). But it's interesting to hear you say you do.

This particular thread reminded me of another recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28603650 - an app to help you form deeper relationships. Do you need it? Do we need it? Do these things really help?

It's funny - maybe the perfect compromise is exactly what you described. You sometimes want mostly mindless FB updates from people you "know" and otherwise converse with your core friends and family through in-person interactions and other more engaging medium.

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#408

Post by ur-whale » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #332

shoto_io wrote: post #3

No. That’s what people like us and all the main stream media hope for. But: most people I know don’t have the slightest clue that Insta and WhatsApp belong to the FB group. And even worse: most of them don’t give a shit about the reputation of FB. They just want to send messages and share pictures through those apps.

> don’t have the slightest clue that Insta and WhatsApp belong to the FB group When you open the apps the only thing written on the screen, besides their name, is "From Facebook", so I doubt that's true. Most don't give a shit though, you're right about that

> so I doubt that's true.

You're assuming people reading what's on their screen.

News at 11: they don't. They just look at the colors and quickly focus on the thing they are used to actually reading (like the thread content).

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#409

Post by ur-whale » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

metalliqaz wrote: post #39

shoto_io wrote: post #3

No. That’s what people like us and all the main stream media hope for. But: most people I know don’t have the slightest clue that Insta and WhatsApp belong to the FB group. And even worse: most of them don’t give a shit about the reputation of FB. They just want to send messages and share pictures through those apps.

My question is... why do people like us continue to work there? They know what is going on there more than anyone.

>why do people like us continue to work there?

Money.

Re: Facebook is nearing a reputational point of no return

#410

Post by amyjess » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

The best way to make Facebook clean up its act is to revoke Section 230 with no exceptions.

If someone's relative dies to covid because people on Facebook convinced them to refuse the vaccine, the whole family should be able to sue Facebook for wrongful death. Same if someone dies as a result of alternative "medicine" suggested to them by someone on Facebook. If someone gets assaulted after people on Facebook stir up a harassment campaign against them, Facebook should be criminally charged with conspiracy. If people on Facebook organize a violent insurrection, Facebook should be criminally charged. Make Facebook 100% legally responsible for every single piece of content on the platform, and then we'll see some real changes made.