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Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

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241–250 of 306 posts

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#241
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: revenue generated, if this [1] article about Peter Thiel's $5bn Roth is correct, that's $1bn+ in lost long term capital gains tax on him alone! (That said, I'm guessing the intent of the provision is more about fairness/eliminating a loophole for the wealthy than strictly generating revenue). [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/lord-of-the-roths-how-tec...

Roth IRAs are pre tax so even if this bill passes Peter Thiel won't have to pay any taxes on his $5B.

This comment is factually inaccurate.

Roth IRA's are post-tax, that's the whole point of them. You put money in after paying tax and then you're done, when you withdraw for retirement it's tax free.

If this bill passes as written he would actually be forced to divest assets out of his Roth IRA and then pay taxes on them now. It's a really substantive change, hence the discussion.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of tax advantaged retirement accounts is to reduce the number of destitute people in retirement. It achieves this goal by providing a tax incentive on regular investment for people who would not otherwise invest. If you won the lottery on crypto then you aren't going to be destitute in retirement. Pay the capital gains and enjoy your wealth. Similarly, if you are a high earner and can afford to take advan…

> The purpose of tax advantaged retirement accounts is to reduce the number of destitute people in retirement. It achieves this goal by providing a tax incentive on regular investment for people who would not otherwise invest. The purpose of tax advantage retirement accounts when originally introduced by ERISA was to give employees of private companies a safety net in cases where their pension defaulted or when a pen…

If there is no benefit to the IRA, then why are you upset?

Tax breaks exist to promote prosocial behavior. Getting people who are struggling to be able to afford to save for retirement is good for society. Giving people who made it big with a lucky gamble a benefit is just good for that individual.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#243
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those lobbyists must be doing a terrible job, since the Pension Protection Act of 2006 strengthened the reliability of defined benefit pensions. Pensions were already dead long before 2006, and inevitable future pension failures baked into the system years and decades earlier. And in any event the PPA heavily favored 401(k)'s, the price extracted by Republicans for creating the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.…

There are multiple types of risks in financial instruments. Risk of loss of principal is only one of them. Risk of underperforming inflation is better addressed by equities than annuities. If there was one single "best" investment for everyone, everyone who was well-informed would just buy that. For me (and I think many others), an annuity that ends at death is not my primary goal when considering how to arrange my i…

The larger debate is fundamentally about how policy should channel people to maximize the public good in which equitable outcomes are a crucial component.

To my mind, Social Security, pensions, 401(k)s, and the like can all play a part. My larger point about pensions specifically is that there's nothing inherently less risky in pensions from a purely accounting perspective. Actuarial tables were astonishingly precise 100 years ago, and our ability to diversify and insure risk through private markets has only grown while at the same time U.S. monetary stability has achieved undreamed of heights, even considering asset inflation. The basic dilemmas and moral hazards, meanwhile, have largely stayed the same, albeit sometimes obscured by increasing technical complexity.

The biggest part of the puzzle concerns public policy. For some reason we keep returning to tired debates about socialist vs private markets or personal freedom vs authoritarianism, like we're still picking sides in an insurgent communist revolution at the turn of the previous century. (The current debates are astonishingly similar to the ones we've had prior, such as over hourly limits, employment disability insurance, and especially Social Security.) It's ridiculous. We have a decent grasp on which basic tools work better in which contexts and why, partly because the science of economics has improved, and partly because the past century saw a large number of social experiments play out at large scales both domestically and especially globally. The immediate question isn't which singular option to chose, it's about how to mix-and-match instruments and incentives. Interactions and second-order effects are still fuzzy, and political cultures do matter, but there are so many tremendous improvements we could make before we hit that next wall.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern 401(k) practices emerged from one of these then-obscure tax codes, which I view as an unabashedly good outcome.

The modern 401k laws are a giveaway to the financial industry. They stipulate extraordinary restrictions on what investors can/must _invest_ in and fundamentally transfer tremendous economic power and influence to “advisors” and the financiers attached to them.

While what you say is true, I think this is something like 7 parts benefit to tens of millions of W-2 employees and 1 part benefit to a much smaller number of financial industry workers. I wouldn’t want to give up the 7 to prevent the 1.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think too many "peasants" have LLCs so they can use their IRAs to invest in crypto.

There are companies like Rocket Dollar that handle the paperwork for you for $15/month. Not mainstream but not a secret either.

I don't think too many "peasants" would be able to make $15/month from it, much less any actual gain.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#246
post #53
post #19

Presumably meant to address high net worth individuals completely dodging taxation on huge gains by using their IRAs for investments like exercising early-stage stock options.[1] I kind of wish they'd go with just capping the gains, but would I still say that if I wasn't planning to use mine to "fund" high-return cryptocurrency arbitrages? 1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahhansen/2021/06/24/peter-th...

I'm actually pretty fiscally conservative but I think it's ridiculous that someone abused the intent of a Roth IRA by accumulating $5 billion into it. The whole purpose of IRAs is to encourage regular people to save for retirement. It was not meant to provide billionaires tax loopholes to avoid paying millions or even billions of dollars in taxes. It's kind of like playing a game with someone. 99% of the people are f…

I think you should be able to invest in your IRA however you like, but there really should have been a limit on how much is tax advantaged. Or perhaps just a limit in terms of how large disbursements can be while still being tax advantaged?

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can move to a different country if you disagree with the voters of this one.

Democracy is tyranny. Voting is for children. Contractual representation is an acceptable solution.

I'm pretty sure minors are legally prevented from voting.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#248
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems… fine? And a lot less FUD-y than the original article. I find that talk of the “freedoms” being taken away often is propaganda by the corporate interest youre paying to exercise the supposed freedom

Well you can't deny that options are being taken away for a portion of citizens. I stopped doing more than the minimum match into my 401K a long time ago because I could no longer trust that in 30, 40, 50 years nobody wouldn't have come after it as an easy target. It's kind of like gun control (which isn't a good analogy since it's too politically charged) - you're pointing at one restriction and saying "hey, it's no…

If any restriction is intolerable then what remains?

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing. You still pay taxes on withdrawals from a traditional IRA.

So why not just invest in Bitcoin outside of your tax-advantaged accounts?

Why not invest inside of your tax-advantaged accounts as well?

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The purpose of tax advantaged retirement accounts is to reduce the number of destitute people in retirement. It achieves this goal by providing a tax incentive on regular investment for people who would not otherwise invest. The purpose of tax advantage retirement accounts when originally introduced by ERISA was to give employees of private companies a safety net in cases where their pension defaulted or when a pen…

If there is no benefit to the IRA, then why are you upset? Tax breaks exist to promote prosocial behavior. Getting people who are struggling to be able to afford to save for retirement is good for society. Giving people who made it big with a lucky gamble a benefit is just good for that individual.

In this case it's good for the individual without being detrimental to society.
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