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Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

advantaira.com

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Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#72
post #58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the fact that more rich do it mean it's wrong? Or that low and middle income should use it as a model and the practice should be encouraged? I mean, if private citizens can build themselves up without being beholden to social security and Wall Street - why is this bad? What if - instead of the government keeping us to the lowest common denominator (social security) they encourage, educate, and allow everyone to…

No one's saying you can't get rich. You have to pay taxes on the gains.

Agree - everyone should pay taxes. What I'm suggesting is leaving the "no taxation on this type of gain [IRA]" and promote it to the entire citizenry as a method of not requiring social security, or not needing to support as many people on social security. The governments job should be to support people being OFF SS based on their own supportive, good choices....

If more people were off SS, then the entire governments budget would go down - which requires less taxation. We've taken the opposite approach.. support consumerism and spending, thus the government taxation and expanding budgets grow higher as our population ages to support a wider group.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#73
I'd recommend reading the proposed provisions themselves directly from the Ways & Means Committee instead of the main article urging action: https://www.advantaira.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/WM-Tax...

Highlights:

1. You can't add new contributions to tax-advantaged accounts if their total value exceeds $10 million and you make over $400K for single filers, amounts indexed to inflation.

2. There are required minimum distributions if you have tax-advantaged accounts over $10M and make over $400k. There's a more rapid drain if you have over $20M.

3. Closes the backdoor Roth IRA (https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth) only for people making over $400k. Closes the mega backdoor (https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Mega-backdoor_Roth) for everybody.

4. Prohibits you from using a tax advantaged account to invest in securities that require "accredited investor" status (hedge funds, etc). You also can't use the tax advantaged account to invest in businesses where you have 50% or more of an interest.

Unless you're super rich, were using a tax advantaged account to invest in your business, or were using the mega backdoor, which isn't available to everyone and still does require a pretty high income (investing more than ~$20k/year in a 401k), this doesn't really impact you. You can also still do whatever you want in a taxable account, so to me this just seems like a roundabout way of increasing taxes on wealthy people's investments.

I do wonder how much revenue this will raise, though. I can't imagine there are a ton of people with retirement balances over $10M. Maybe the expectation is that revenue will compound over time as more and more assets are held in taxable accounts.

EDIT: I think I was wrong about the backdoor Roth still being available to folks making under $400k (point 3) since you can't convert any after tax funds to a Roth with the proposal. So, this does affect people above the Roth ceiling ($140K single income, $208K married), if you were maxing out pretax contributions and making after-tax conversions to a Roth. I think pretax contributions to a traditional IRA for 401k can still get converted to a Roth.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#75

Just so people are aware, high income individuals can’t use IRAs. This is a direct action against middle to low income individuals. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/new-income-ranges-for-ira-eligi...

Oh? Then how did Peter Thiel shelter billions in a Roth IRA?

https://www.propublica.org/article/lord-of-the-roths-how-tec...

This is direct action against rich people abusing a middle-class retirement account. What percentage of actual middle-class people are investing in "private placements and single-member LLCs"? I'd guess it's close to zero. And it probably should be. The whole reason governments create retirement accounts with special advantages is to make sure people are self-supporting in old age and don't need additional state support. That means they should be investing in a broad spectrum of low-risk stuff, not exotic, hard-to-value instruments.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#76
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't as that would fall under the rules for prohibited transactions of which there are strict rules and penalties. See https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/plan-participant-employ... .

It says that those types of transactions are prohibited between the plan and a disqualified person. Does it prohibit those same transactions between an investment within the plan (like an LLC) and a disqualified person? I mean, if I own Apple stock, I can buy things in the Apple store.

No, the LLC is the same as the plan in terms of rules against prohibited transactions. Apple thought experiment works, but if you are personally generating revenue that moves the needle on a IRA investment that would be a no-no.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#77
post #50
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has no impact on the average person in the low to middle class income range. This is just a loophole allowing the rich to put a bunch of money into their IRAs and watch it grow in a tax advantaged way. The average person that's putting the max of $6k (or less) into their IRA is not impacted by this and it's business as usual for them. I believe this is in response to people like Peter Thiel https://www.propublic…

Does the fact that more rich do it mean it's wrong? Or that low and middle income should use it as a model and the practice should be encouraged? I mean, if private citizens can build themselves up without being beholden to social security and Wall Street - why is this bad? What if - instead of the government keeping us to the lowest common denominator (social security) they encourage, educate, and allow everyone to…

> Or that low and middle income should use it as a model and the practice should be encouraged?

Problem with the low/middle income is that where to begin? Rich people hire lawyers to do the work. Low/middle income like myself knows this is available but can't utilize it as we don't know where to start, how to do it, who to contact and can't afford to hire a lawyer.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#78
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I like about Congress - is instead of saying "this provision can allow you to do well for retirement by investing in private companies self directed with an IRA and you might not need social security". Instead they act: "we're not rich, we're mad at the few who are - so instead of teaching you how to do this, we're going to make it illegal"

> we're not rich Yes they are.

To them they're not rich because Bezos has more money than them. "Taxing the rich" is normally defined as tax the people who make more than me

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#79

Just so people are aware, high income individuals can’t use IRAs. This is a direct action against middle to low income individuals. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/new-income-ranges-for-ira-eligi...

No. The income phase outs only apply if you or your spouse is also eligible for a workplace 401k plan. If you don't work somewhere that offers a 401k plan, there is no income level limit for contributing to a traditional IRA.

Re: Self directed IRAs under attack in proposed tax bill

#80
post #56

So, progressively since probably the 1980s (maybe earlier?) Australia has introduced a system called "superannuation" (or just "super" for short). There are two parts to this: 1. Mandatory contributions: currently 10% of your income; and 2. Voluntary contributions: you can contribute more and get a lower tax rate for doing so. By comparison, 401k contributions are tax free. Voluntary super contributions are not. This…

seems similar in concept to an i401k in the US for self employed people. Its pretty much the only option they have though besides IRA's which are capped at an annual contribution of ~6k per year depending on your age.
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