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Bitcoin is a Ponzi

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571–580 of 684 posts

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody should be allowed to transact. While transactions can be results of crimes, transactions are not crimes themselves. Governments should stop crimes that may lead to transactions, not transactions.

I don't think that's true. Isn't a transfer of money to a terrorist organization an act of crime, for example?

What the parent is suggesting isn’t that there aren’t criminal transactions but that there shouldn’t be.

The analogy would be free speech. It shouldn’t be illegal to write an article in support of terrorists even though becoming one might be.

It’s not a right we currently recognize but it’s a cogent argument.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To begin with, let me say I'm very sorry this happened to you, and I think it sounds like an example of a really broken system. This should never happen to someone randomly, and I think you should have been compensated a lot for the troubles and stress it must have caused you. However, I think we should be careful with drawing the conclusion that technology for circumventing our institutions' ability to regulate alto…

Calling that control “democratic” is a bit of a stretch. Plus, anonymous physical cash transactions have been the status quo forever

No they aren’t. There are laws requiring documentation of cash transactions over a threshold.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C'mon crypto, try to beat that :) Nano has instant transactions and 0 fees. Try to beat that.

Yeah, just like a MYSQL database :)) Now let's calculate how much I am going to pay to BUY crypto and SELL crypto in fees . Have you ever done it, seriously?

What backup scheme are you using on your MySQL database? What uptime can you guarantee? How do you handle the security? Who has access to it?

Speaking as a software architect, your MySQL database seems like a terrible solution.

Yeah, you still need to pay for the link with the 'old' system of course. And besides, the exchange fees are nothing compared to the huge gains :p.

Is crypto a better solution now? Sometimes. Is it a better solution overall? yes.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#574
Its a self-feeding system since it prints its own money which is used to buy "real money" which is then destroyed.

This might be questionable and thankfully we have non-PoW/PoS systems that dont do this but the whole Ponzi thing is just nonsense. Its entirely irrelevant if it matches some (your/anyones) definition of a Ponzi or not. Just to usual click-bait "bitcoin very bad" title that gets the HN people all existed to up-vote it.

Yes, bitcoin is garbage tech, but all the hate posts will only push it further. People should focus on systems that do the same as bitcoin but without the "bad". There is a multi billion dollar demand that does not go away. A little bit education about FBA systems would reduce the resource wasting from PoW by a lot and all without taking away the peoples freedom to gamble with "digital money".

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#575
post #565
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you can name notable exceptions is only reinforces the general rule

It's a 6 trillion dollar a day market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_market

speculation is fairly small portion of that market. Companies hedging exposure or just moving money around is the primary driver of volume.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#576
post #60
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of them, some are even advertised as Ponzi schemes.

Once the deception is dispelled it ceases to be a Ponzi scheme, the BS spewed by marketers not withstanding. Ponzi is fraud; deception is imperative. Everything is else Not Ponzi. I'm no crypto currency fanboi, but I feel no need to commit the intellectual fraud of misapplying well understood concepts to denigrate it. Every couple of months, however, someone decides they can score some clicks by yelling 'Ponzi' and w…

Intellectual fraud is somewhat overstating the fact that you disagree with someone else’s definition.

And it puts the blatant “Join the Ponzi scheme early!” stuff I’ve seen on crypto forums into an amusing paradoxical state.

Blockchain and cryptocurrency is over a decade old. Several lifetimes in tech. So far the use appears to be speculation, fraud and burning through electricity as fast as possible.

I hope they do crush it, for that last bit alone if nothing else.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#577
post #103
post #16

Judging by the attitude on HN, cryptocurrency should be worth $0 and written off years ago. Instead it's bigger than ever and the most important people on earth are focusing on it. Somehow it's simultaneously an incredible, useless scam but is so powerful that we must ban it at all costs! HN doesn't know everything, do your own research, use your own logic.

You're being downvoted but I completely agree. It's funny how people on HN which are likely some of the first people in the world to know about bitcoin (eg. since it was only at $100 or less) keep upvoting articles like this for years now. I think these people deep down know that they missed an amazing chance by not investing in bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) years ago, so articles like this make them feel bett…

Yep, because the number going up totally disproves any and all arguments against it.

Sigh.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#578

In a Ponzi scheme, a fraudulent perpetrator takes your money (and the money of many others), gives some of that to early dropouts but takes the rest for himself . Ponzi schemers profit from lying to you where your money goes. With a decentralized digital asset there is no sole person or company that profits from just lying to you about where your Dollar goes in exchange for digitals. Sure, miners and exchanges make p…

The only way to make profit on bitcoin is to make someone else poorer by that amount. That's what makes it a ponzi - anything with this property that pretends to be an investment is one. Implementation details are irrelevant.

>Goods and services provided by humans have no intrinsic value but become precious simply there being demand by other humans.

Nonsense that's easy to disprove: try to stop eating food and start 'valuing' dirt as food. You will, of course, starve to death. Why? Because actual value is objective and exists regardless of what people think.

Intrinsic value objectively exists, but in most cases can only be estimated, correctly or not. It depends both on location and time coordinates.

Civilizations that estimate objective value too incorrectly collapse or get conquered. Those that estimate it correctly enough prosper.

The long term metric for any civilization is fortunately clear enough - energy use, also called the Kardashev's scale. It's a long term metric because foolish civilizations can waste energy in the short term (eg. by mining bitcoin) - but because it's wasted it results in less available energy in the future.

In cases like bitcoin there are no unknowns - it objectively has negative value and destroys wealth. It's backed by nothing and generates no income.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying don't play in crypto.

Never in history was it so easy to get rich by extracting wealth from others - which is what bitcoin and 99% of crypto in general is for. Is it a scam to promote it? My personal definition is pretty simple: it's a scam when promotion involves lies. Telling people bitcoin has value, while being a developer (thus smart enough to know it's worthless)? Scammer. Telling people it may go up in price (because other people may buy it)? Not a lie.

China was smart to ban crypto - they're too big to hope to profit at the expense of the west, and in fact most coins and tokens are held by Westerners, virtually guaranteeing it would end up as wealth transfer from China.

Crypto tokens can have real value - if they monetize efficiency increase in the real world. A smart contract economy is a possibility and it can exist - but right now it's all in the proof of concept stage. Without the ponzi factor I think eth should be valued between $1B-$10B (based on future potential, not current income), other smart contract platforms collectively at 20% of it, some defi tokens like MKR in the upper 8 figures - lower 9 figures. Everything else - worthless.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for pointing this out. People have different reasons why they believe in bitcoin (and other cryptos). Where I live the government has in the past 20 years wiped out citizens' savings at least 3 times, arbitrarily, without any notice. In such a situation using bitcoin, regardless of the risk/skepticism, is a far better alternative than having all your money disappear on the whims and or experiments of politicia…

It's sad to hear this. Is there no way for you to buy foreign currency like dollars instead? Bitcoin might be an attractive asset to speculate in, but I'm not sure if it's the safest way to hold onto your wealth, because of its inefficiency, volatility, the need for endless mining to sustain it, and so on. It might multiply your wealth by 10 or reduce it to zero -- do you really want to take the risk? I understand th…

The only thing fiat currency across the world has proven is that it's subject to the whims of bureaucrats and has the theft of inflation built-in. Even the "best" fiat in the world like GBP and USD have seen their purchasing reduced drastically over the decades.

I don't trust politicians to manage their money or economy well. But I do trust code and math that enforces decentralised consensus that can't be manipulated by a handful of powerful people. Some have tried in Bitcoin's short 12 year history, and they've all failed.

You say Bitcoin is inefficient. In comparison to what? By what measures? If you compare Bitcoin to gold mining it uses less energy. https://cbeci.org/index/comparisons

If you compare it to the legacy financial system (and many other industries), it also uses less energy. https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/bitcoin-energy-use-comp...

You say Bitcoin is volatile, but that is to be expected for a new form of money that people are still trying to figure out the value of. How long do you think it took for gold to reach a stable point of perceived value over its long history? Bitcoin is only 12 years old.

But perhaps calling it "volatile" isn't really even fair to begin with, when you compare it to top stocks and gold. https://ecoinometrics.substack.com/p/ecoinometrics-comparing...

Need for endless mining? Of course it's endless, it's a vital part of network security in an adversarial environment. As the network stores more value the energy expenditure will need to go up to secure it. This is true of any other store of value. Gold is not only incredibly expensive to mine, it's expensive to secure in large facilities.

The more Bitcoin integrates into the economy and the more wealth it secures, the more energy expenditure it should use. This is by design and a good thing. And if you compare it to other industries (linked above), it is far more efficient than current systems.

Forget "crypto". Most of them are varying degrees of scam or cargo-culting around "blockchain technology" (including Ethereum). Bitcoin is the only one that matters because it's truly neutral and decentralised. It wasn't founded by any company, there's no marketing team or CEO. It's just an open network protocol that people choose to opt-in to because they understand its value proposition to the world. In the same way that there's a separation of church and state, there needs to be a separation of money and state.

https://vijayboyapati.medium.com/the-bullish-case-for-bitcoi...

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#580
post #51

A lot of the "Common Objections" relate to the REASONS people choose to own Bitcoin and how those cases make it a Ponzi. There are many different reasons to own Bitcoin, however the author seems to only view it through the lens of someone living in a wealthy and developed country with financial stability. The properties of it being difficult/impossible to confiscate and its privacy make it valuable in oppressive regi…

> The properties of it being difficult/impossible to confiscate and its privacy make it valuable in oppressive regimes. A refugee could store their wealth in Bitcoin, leave their country, settle somewhere else, and access their Bitcoin without the risk of it being confiscated during the journey, because they can simply memorise the seed phrase (24 words). LOL, who in those countries would sell them bitcoin? You've pu…

Alex Gladstein has written about this at length.

He works for the Human Rights Foundation and advocates Bitcoin for its humanitarian use cases. He has spoken to many people in these types of countries to get their take on it. See for yourself...

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/authors/alexgladstein

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