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RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

blog.chromium.org

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Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#71

Post by eru »

mofosyne wrote: post #49
vbezhenar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popular apps will be as slow as user can tolerate. Because if they're not slow enough, it invites developers to introduce another abstraction layer. Good thing is, that it's possible to create truly groundbreaking apps using non-conventional techniques, as web becomes faster and richer with new APIs. For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. Someone will do it. It'll b…

If only we can charge a price for taking up too much ram or cpu cycles.

Just don't use it?

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#72

Post by eru »

shakna wrote: post #50
afgrant wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t intend this as facetious, but how many years do you expect closed-source OS vendors to support their first-party hardware?

8-10 years is what the Consumer Rights watchdog expects for devices in the price range of a MacBook in my nation to continue to provide hardware support, so I would say that seems like a reasonable amount of time for there to continue to be software support. MacBooks aren't cheap. For the average person they are a significant expense. So the lifetime of support should reflect that.

The lifetime support will reflect what consumers demand and are willing to pay for.

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#73

Post by eru »

vbezhenar wrote: post #59
cblconfederate wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only solution to that is if the browser starts absorbing more of the stuff that developers now use javascript for, like UI components etc.

Designers will wrinkle their noses at standard components and will ask something custom to stand out.

Perhaps something like exokernels for the browser might be the solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exokernel

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#74

Post by eru »

yunohn wrote: post #10
LooerCell wrote: post #5

“improves battery life by up to 0.5%” To me this line is quite ridiculous. We all know that Chrome is now the main responsible for battery consumption on any laptop and could be optimized much more.

At the scale that Chrome operates, 0.5% energy reduction globally is massive. All these small gains also add for individual devices as well.

It's massive in an absolute sense, so it makes sense to have a few people dedicated even to such small improvements.

But it's still tiny in a relative sense.

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#75

Post by marginalia_nu »

flohofwoe wrote: post #70
marginalia_nu wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be the case with a lot of modern rendering. I imagine it's why what's considered "acceptable framerates" in games keeps rising. 50 FPS on a (PAL) NES game is incredibly snappy and allows frame perfect inputs, whereas in a modern shooter it's almost unplayably sluggish.

Old game consoles and home computers had much better input latency so that input was usually 'realized' within the same video frame. This is much harder to do on modern hardware and operating systems (and frame rate is also only one aspect of button-to-screen latency).

The pipeline rendering architecture is probably also in part to blame. It doesn't degrade particularly gracefully.

Modern GPUs have staggered rendering where one frame is rendered while the previous frame is postprocessed (that's a bit simplified, it's more like a waterfall with a bunch of different steps). That sort of a conveyor belt-like operation always induces latency, and a struggling GPU increases the time it takes the frame to hit the screen. We blame the frame rate, but in reality that's just another symptom of what's causing the perception of sluggishness, rather than the cause itself.

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#76

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #2

How come processors and browsers become faster every year but the internet feels as slow and bloated as ever? How long can this x% faster continue? There must be some theoretical optimum, how far are we away?

I haven't had a faster processor in years. (Maybe decades?)

(But they get more power efficient and quieter, this is true.)

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#77

Post by afgrant »

ddalex wrote: post #39
afgrant wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t intend this as facetious, but how many years do you expect closed-source OS vendors to support their first-party hardware?

not OP, but for the lifetime of the hardware ? or, at least, should be specified in T&C when buying the hardware I am still pissed off that my 2012 Macbook Air is no longer receiving OS updates - compare that to Microsoft that allows me to run windows on basically any PC

The “lifetime of the hardware” is defined by the lifetime of the supporting software, which ultimately boils down to the popularity of the platform you’re on

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#78

Post by afgrant »

shakna wrote: post #50
afgrant wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t intend this as facetious, but how many years do you expect closed-source OS vendors to support their first-party hardware?

8-10 years is what the Consumer Rights watchdog expects for devices in the price range of a MacBook in my nation to continue to provide hardware support, so I would say that seems like a reasonable amount of time for there to continue to be software support. MacBooks aren't cheap. For the average person they are a significant expense. So the lifetime of support should reflect that.

In what nation?

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#79

Post by perryizgr8 »

flohofwoe wrote: post #65
perryizgr8 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the web needs a proper "DirectX initiative" like what Microsoft did in the late 90's to get Windows gaming off the ground Why? We can already play AAA games on our computers. It works very well, much better than anything web-based. Why would anyone put effort into replicating the same thing inside the browser?

Mostly independence from the whims of platform owners who control the distribution, a space to try out quirky new ideas, and less hassle both for devs and users (no lengthy download or installation process for instance). This is much more important for indie devs than AAA devs though (the current problems of the web platforms are not really 'AAA specific'). Also, don't forget that PC gaming could very well have died…

> Mostly independence from the whims of platform owners who control the distribution

Agreed, however platforms that restrict app distribution also heavily restrict what you can run via the browser (see Ios). So the benefit is minimal.

> a space to try out quirky new ideas

This has nothing to do with web. Look at steam's catalog. Plenty of whacky quirky stuff is available.

> no lengthy download or installation process for instance

Why do you think AAA games will not need downloading assets and logic?

> This is much more important for indie devs than AAA devs though

I agree, but this is a solved problem with Steam. No need to develop your own over the web.

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#80

Post by xnx »

sirk390 wrote: post #33
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #2

How come processors and browsers become faster every year but the internet feels as slow and bloated as ever? How long can this x% faster continue? There must be some theoretical optimum, how far are we away?

Https multiplied latency by three when opening websites compared to 10/15years ago where many websites were http. And also many websites include more tracking, for example Google search results used to directly send you to the result page. Now they first send you to Google so that they know you clicked but it also adds noticeable latency.

I'm pretty sure Google currently uses an async ping https://www.w3schools.com/tags/att_a_ping.asp) instead of a redirect to log what's been clicked. It's been a very long time (if ever?) since they didn't have result click logging at all.
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