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RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

blog.chromium.org

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Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#21

Post by flohofwoe »

vbezhenar wrote: post #14
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #2

How come processors and browsers become faster every year but the internet feels as slow and bloated as ever? How long can this x% faster continue? There must be some theoretical optimum, how far are we away?

Popular apps will be as slow as user can tolerate. Because if they're not slow enough, it invites developers to introduce another abstraction layer. Good thing is, that it's possible to create truly groundbreaking apps using non-conventional techniques, as web becomes faster and richer with new APIs. For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. Someone will do it. It'll b…

> For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser.

This has been promised since at least the WebGL and asm.js days. It still won't happen, but not mainly for technical reasons, but for business reasons.

...but of course also some technical reasons. Asm.js/WASM and WebGL/WebGPU are fine, but most other web APIs are a mess and the web is a highly unstable platform, APIs are deactivated or deprecated on a whim, APIs change behaviour unpredictably, behaviour differs between browsers, etc etc...

TL;DR: the web needs a proper "DirectX initiative" like what Microsoft did in the late 90's to get Windows gaming off the ground.

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#22

Post by moonchrome »

vbezhenar wrote: post #14
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #2

How come processors and browsers become faster every year but the internet feels as slow and bloated as ever? How long can this x% faster continue? There must be some theoretical optimum, how far are we away?

Popular apps will be as slow as user can tolerate. Because if they're not slow enough, it invites developers to introduce another abstraction layer. Good thing is, that it's possible to create truly groundbreaking apps using non-conventional techniques, as web becomes faster and richer with new APIs. For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. Someone will do it. It'll b…

>For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. Someone will do it. It'll be awesome.

You get a shitty distribution model (relying on browser for cache or limited localstorage, or whatever you want it's shitty in the browser and inconsistent, browsers aren't built to handle GB sized assets).

You pay the sandbox tax even in the ideal scenario and there are plenty pathological ones. And even if you aren't performance constrained you're adding battery drain for no benefit.

Then there's the shitty input model and interaction with browser chrome.

And what are the benefits exactly ? Avoiding app stores ? Might benefit the developer but not really a benefit for the consumer.

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#23

Post by nsomaru »

flohofwoe wrote: post #21
vbezhenar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popular apps will be as slow as user can tolerate. Because if they're not slow enough, it invites developers to introduce another abstraction layer. Good thing is, that it's possible to create truly groundbreaking apps using non-conventional techniques, as web becomes faster and richer with new APIs. For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. Someone will do it. It'll b…

> For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. This has been promised since at least the WebGL and asm.js days. It still won't happen, but not mainly for technical reasons, but for business reasons. ...but of course also some technical reasons. Asm.js/WASM and WebGL/WebGPU are fine, but most other web APIs are a mess and the web is a highly unstable platform, APIs are dea…

What are the business reasons? Surely the web is just a platform for delivery? Payment etc can happen through the browser.

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#24

Post by bryanrasmussen »

moonchrome wrote: post #22
vbezhenar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popular apps will be as slow as user can tolerate. Because if they're not slow enough, it invites developers to introduce another abstraction layer. Good thing is, that it's possible to create truly groundbreaking apps using non-conventional techniques, as web becomes faster and richer with new APIs. For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. Someone will do it. It'll b…

>For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. Someone will do it. It'll be awesome. You get a shitty distribution model (relying on browser for cache or limited localstorage, or whatever you want it's shitty in the browser and inconsistent, browsers aren't built to handle GB sized assets). You pay the sandbox tax even in the ideal scenario and there are plenty pathologica…

>And what are the benefits exactly ? Avoiding app stores ? Might benefit the developer but not really a benefit for the consumer.

well, if a company can avoid paying a significant portion of revenue to an app store they might be able to hire better or more developers which might conceivably be a benefit for the consumer.

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#25

Post by afgrant »

flohofwoe wrote: post #19
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #2

How come processors and browsers become faster every year but the internet feels as slow and bloated as ever? How long can this x% faster continue? There must be some theoretical optimum, how far are we away?

Not just the internet: case in point, the new Xcode 13 has some really embarassing performance problems on my mid-2014 13"MBP. I guess the Xcode team switched to shiny new M1 Macs between Xcode 12 and 13.

I don’t intend this as facetious, but how many years do you expect closed-source OS vendors to support their first-party hardware?

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#26

Post by WithinReason »

omnicognate wrote: post #16
yunohn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the scale that Chrome operates, 0.5% energy reduction globally is massive. All these small gains also add for individual devices as well.

You mean the total energy saved across all devices? The only context in which anybody could give a fig about that is as it relates to total global energy consumption, of which it is an utterly neglible speck. Edit: Had a go at putting some numbers on that for fun, and will partially retract my comment (no I don't, see below). If it takes [1] around 0.01kWh to charge a smartphone, there are [2] around 6 billion smartp…

You overestimated by 10x (0.05 should be 0.005)

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#27

Post by Zababa »

moonchrome wrote: post #22
vbezhenar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popular apps will be as slow as user can tolerate. Because if they're not slow enough, it invites developers to introduce another abstraction layer. Good thing is, that it's possible to create truly groundbreaking apps using non-conventional techniques, as web becomes faster and richer with new APIs. For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. Someone will do it. It'll b…

>For example with Wasm and WebGPU it's possible to create AAA games running in the browser. Someone will do it. It'll be awesome. You get a shitty distribution model (relying on browser for cache or limited localstorage, or whatever you want it's shitty in the browser and inconsistent, browsers aren't built to handle GB sized assets). You pay the sandbox tax even in the ideal scenario and there are plenty pathologica…

I think they were making a point about performance.

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#28

Post by flohofwoe »

afgrant wrote: post #25
flohofwoe wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just the internet: case in point, the new Xcode 13 has some really embarassing performance problems on my mid-2014 13"MBP. I guess the Xcode team switched to shiny new M1 Macs between Xcode 12 and 13.

I don’t intend this as facetious, but how many years do you expect closed-source OS vendors to support their first-party hardware?

The thing is, this is in areas that worked fine for over a decade. Somebody must have decided that Xcode's text input code (that's one of the things that got slower) needs to be rewritten for no obvious reasons, but then didn't optimize it as much as the old code.

What's the point of new hardware if the new software that's written for it makes it just as slow (or in this case: much slower) than the old hardware?

Re: RenderingNG: An architecture that makes and keeps Chrome fast for the long term

#29

Post by omnicognate »

WithinReason wrote: post #26
omnicognate wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the total energy saved across all devices? The only context in which anybody could give a fig about that is as it relates to total global energy consumption, of which it is an utterly neglible speck. Edit: Had a go at putting some numbers on that for fun, and will partially retract my comment (no I don't, see below). If it takes [1] around 0.01kWh to charge a smartphone, there are [2] around 6 billion smartp…

You overestimated by 10x (0.05 should be 0.005)

Ah, well spotted.
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