Bitcoin is a Ponzi • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#361

Post by zaidf » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:28 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #346

srge wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And the argument crypto = ponzi is so wrong. What about other investment vehicles? Gold? Real estate? Stock market. Come on!

The article literally covers each of those cases and explains exactly why those are not Ponzi schemes while Bitcoin is ([edit] under "Common Objections" - which should really read "Common Whataboutisms"). > By that definition, stocks too are ponzis. No. Stocks have an external source of revenue, namely the profit that the company makes by selling its products and services to customers (not investors); and these profi…

(Nevertheless, investing in gold at the current price seems unwise, since its price is many times its "natural" price as commodity...)

You left out the most important and contentious part. It is not surprising because the author of the article itself made the single, most important point a fine print because it hurts their argument.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#362

Post by rvense » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:28 AM UTC

luka-birsa wrote: post #310

Why are such articles constantly popping up on HN? It's clear that the HN crowd does not like Bitcoin. So why keep reiterating similar arguments all over? There is zero utility in the article shared. It states some anti crypto views and that's it. Even the author concedes that this is according to his own definition and not based on real life legal tests (which have of course shown that Bitcoin is not a ponzi). Just…

Maybe when cryptocurrency enthusiasts stop running around with bullhorns telling people about how they're going to save the world.

You're not saving anything. There are valid criticisms of the current financial system, but cryptocurrencies are not a good answer to them.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#363

Post by koonsolo » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #346

srge wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And the argument crypto = ponzi is so wrong. What about other investment vehicles? Gold? Real estate? Stock market. Come on!

The article literally covers each of those cases and explains exactly why those are not Ponzi schemes while Bitcoin is ([edit] under "Common Objections" - which should really read "Common Whataboutisms"). > By that definition, stocks too are ponzis. No. Stocks have an external source of revenue, namely the profit that the company makes by selling its products and services to customers (not investors); and these profi…

Gold doesn't have a source of revenue.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#364

Post by cerved » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

kaczordon wrote: post #354

luka-birsa wrote: post #310

Why are such articles constantly popping up on HN? It's clear that the HN crowd does not like Bitcoin. So why keep reiterating similar arguments all over? There is zero utility in the article shared. It states some anti crypto views and that's it. Even the author concedes that this is according to his own definition and not based on real life legal tests (which have of course shown that Bitcoin is not a ponzi). Just…

By this articles definition WeWork is a Ponzi scheme, as would most startups.

wework is

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#365

Post by drdeca » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

baby wrote: post #352

drdeca wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fiat here means (roughly) government issued, I think

that's the correct distinction, but the poster I was replying to was trying to make some arbitrary distinction.

I don't follow? They are saying that in order to run a business in which one sells goods or services for cryptocoins, that in order to pay for one's business costs, one must spend fiat,

and that therefore, someone selling goods for cryptocoins, must, in addition to using cryptocoins, also use fiat currencies (because most of their business expenses can only be paid in fiat currencies).

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#366

Post by scottyp21 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

frozenport wrote: post #341

scottyp21 wrote: post #326

> Nevertheless, investing in gold at the current price seems unwise, since its price is many times its "natural" price as commodity and so it is more likely to go down than up. This is a misconception and a fundamental misunderstanding of gold's primary utility for thousands of years. While it is true that gold's price reflects a significant premium beyond the "natural" market price, this has been the case for millen…

I also think investing in gold compared to let's say stocks is a sort of ponzi scheme in the sense of OPs article. So no price point. Until bitcoin intrinsically generates value I'm not putting money in it.

I understand your concern over the lack of "intrinsic value" in the sense that it is not a productive asset generating economic value (like a business). That said, I'd really encourage you to consider that monetary value is real. I don't necessarily recommend investing in it, but there's a reason humans have valued gold for so long.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#367

Post by arcticbull » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #358

arcticbull wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's great reasons not to. Unless we nip this in the bud, we face a potential repeat of the 1997 Albanian Ponzi crisis that brought about the total collapse of their economy. Everyone in Albania jumped in and started participating in a number of big Ponzi schemes. Their finance minister tried to stop them, so they threw him in jail. They then had a civil war about it, and the IMF had to drop in big bags of money.…

> This is what the maxis are after. When you find yourself saying that the people you disagree with are deliberately seeking catastrophic outcomes, it's time to take a step back and reconsider. I don't think anyone wants to destroy the global economy and cause a global war. Maybe the Bitcoin maxis are wrong about the long-term viability of Bitcoin, but I doubt very much they are some kind of nihilistic death cult ben…

That's fair, and I walk that back. I don't think they're intentionally taking us into a Mad Max future, but I don't think their intent changes much if they get their way.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#368

Post by chowchowchow » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

sb057 wrote: post #226

chowchowchow wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s clearly argued that since a majority of demand for gold is from non-investors it doesn’t fit the definition..

Roughly 50% of gold's demand comes from private investors and central banks, with another 40% of demand being driven by (para-investment) jewelry. https://www.gold.org/goldhub/data/gold-supply-and-demand-sta...

Seems to fluctuate quarterly and I was saying the article addresses the point and makes an argument that BTC is not “like gold” in this way because the majority of demand for gold comes from non-investors (which appears to be the case in I think most quarters but perhaps not most recently). Jewelry is its own category but it does have “utility” if viewed through the lens of human behavior across civilizations over time.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#369

Post by zenbai » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

luka-birsa wrote: post #310

Why are such articles constantly popping up on HN? It's clear that the HN crowd does not like Bitcoin. So why keep reiterating similar arguments all over? There is zero utility in the article shared. It states some anti crypto views and that's it. Even the author concedes that this is according to his own definition and not based on real life legal tests (which have of course shown that Bitcoin is not a ponzi). Just…

People should learn about how much money the Fed is printing these days.

Bitcoin is getting a lot of attention from a lot of very smart financial people around the world because they see that with so much USD being printed, inflation is bound to happen and Bitcoin is one of many ways they can hedge against it.

HN is where you can find great commentary about tech related stuff. But outside of that eg. financial matters .. no.

Re: Bitcoin is a Ponzi

#370

Post by MelonTree » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #313

MelonTree wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not at all. During my asset freeze, I considered trying to take action against my bank to force something to actually happen and facts to come to light. But I also had access to no money, and and my time was better spent working some cash jobs so I didn't have to lean so much on my friends. And then once my assets were unfrozen, I don't think I really have much grounds for recourse..

I’m sorry but what? Was this in the US? Because the intro was “oppressive regime,” and then you gave an example of an oppressive regime, and now I’m realizing you might very well be in the US. I’m just shocked; never considered this could happen. Was this related to your employer, and… Well, I should just ask rather than guess :) thank you for sharing, and I’m really sorry that happened. One of the best decisions I’v…

Yeah, it was the US. Funnily enough, I never found out why it happened. Everyone claimed to not know, have no access to it, and the people who were supposed to be in touch with me never were. A week earlier I did send a reasonable amount of money to someone in country that is most well known for it's illegal drug industry. Although I have nothing to do with drugs or anything illegal, and no way of knowing if that was even related or not (no one even asked me about it, so hard to tell if it was a coincidence or not)