Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#231

Post by greysphere » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

debaserab2 wrote: post #222

ManBlanket wrote: post #214

This policy seems purposefully vague. "Explain its data retention/deletion policies and describe how a user can revoke consent and/or request deletion of the user’s data." My first question before looking into it was, "What an auth tenant or some other service that stores user data?" or, "what about like a banking or healthcare app that is just a portal for another system?" And, "What does deleted even mean? IsDelete…

When did "deleted" become a vague term? Deleted means removing as much PII as you reasonably have authority to do so. It means purging all that data from all databases with a guarantee that you will be removed completely from all snapshots in a reasonable amount of time. This should be the default, normal understanding of what it means to delete your account. It doesn't mean set a flag in a database so when your comp…

I mean... There are a zillion reasons this isn't trivial. Imagine I have an app that pays you, and it has to report taxes on it. It can't just delete your info. Imagine an app that sells alcohol, maybe it needs to make sure it has confirmation of your age/info in case of legal action. Imagine a chat application, if you chatted with someone and they deleted their account, would you lose the chat information (or even the name/record of who you chatted with?), no, that's 'your' information too, somehow.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#232

Post by nerdjon » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #111

nerdjon wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the cost of gaining access to users in iPhone. This also has nothing to do with unapproved software. The idea that a user can actually delete their data from your servers should not be a controversial topic. But of course it is for businesses and developers, which is why Apple has to make a policy like this. As a user I am very happy with this.

> This is the cost of gaining access to users in iPhone. 50+% of Americans for everything they do, say, buy, etc. This is a monopoly by sheer volume and scale of their reach.

Maybe it’s time to realize that consumers continue to choose a more locked down platform for policies like this?

Businesses will continue to complain but this protects the user.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#233

Post by blendergeek » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

slownews45 wrote: post #77

jackdeansmith wrote: post #16

Feels to me like public pressure is on Apple to actually justify their argument that their App Store policies are for the benefit of their customers. If that results in more policies like this that really do improve customer experiences, that's not the worst outcome.

Most of their policies are ones CONSUMERS have liked but BUSINESSES have hated. The litigation / cases / govt intervention has been on behalf of businesses not consumers. A lot of folks in the "alliance for app fairness" have just horrible billing practices. Understandably, if they can get out of the app store, they can stop you from being able to do things like delete your account or unsubscribe with a few clicks. A…

> The litigation / cases / govt intervention has been on behalf of businesses not consumers.

There is actually a class action suit against Apple regarding anti-trust brought by consumers. Unfortunately, while the suit was filed in 2011, it wasn't until 2019 that the Supreme Court ruled that consumers even do business with Apple in the App Store [0]. So, a lawsuit filed in 2011 was allowed to go forward in 2019. I don't know what methods Apple had used to hold up the case since then.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Pepper

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#234

Post by gbear605 » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:25 PM UTC

slownews45 wrote: post #87

ceejayoz wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better, when I had to cancel my NYT subscription, it said there weren't enough cancellation reps to connect me; "try again later". I went in via the normal support chat, said I wanted to cancel, and was immediately redirected to one. It was an outright lie.

Yep - and these are the SAME places posting LONG articles about how terrible Apple's store policies are. Uh, folks spend a lot on the apple store for a reason.

The problem is how Apple both profits from the app store and sets rules on the app store. It’s incentivized to create rules that make it money without helping users. Apple needs to either stop making money from the app store or to create a separate body that can set rules without being incentivized by profit.

Laws are good, but the lawmakers shouldn’t profit from them.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#235

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

olah_1 wrote: post #151

jeroenhd wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why using the blockchain got user data is such a stupid idea. The immutability makes it impossible to redact or remove information, even if that information is encrypted. The same is true foor P2P services where there is no central accounting system. Deleting the account shouldn't be a problem if all the "account" info is stored on the device itself, so if your reviewers aren't completely incompetent I don't…

You can have decentralized p2p systems that respect users (allow deletes). One example would be Gun which allows you to “tombstone” your data. Just overwrite it with a blank. A new version of Scuttlebutt allows tombstoning too. I think mutable should be the default. Make it all ephemeral with optional permanence.

[deleted]

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#236

Post by tediousdemise » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

greysphere wrote: post #231

debaserab2 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did "deleted" become a vague term? Deleted means removing as much PII as you reasonably have authority to do so. It means purging all that data from all databases with a guarantee that you will be removed completely from all snapshots in a reasonable amount of time. This should be the default, normal understanding of what it means to delete your account. It doesn't mean set a flag in a database so when your comp…

I mean... There are a zillion reasons this isn't trivial. Imagine I have an app that pays you, and it has to report taxes on it. It can't just delete your info. Imagine an app that sells alcohol, maybe it needs to make sure it has confirmation of your age/info in case of legal action. Imagine a chat application, if you chatted with someone and they deleted their account, would you lose the chat information (or even t…

The right to be forgotten is just that - the right to be forgotten. Your issues or needs, whatever they may be (tax info retention, age info retention, etc), take a backseat to the user's rights.

In other words: if there is overlap, the right of one person's data to be forgotten supersedes the right of the other person's data to be remembered.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#237

Post by runj__ » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

imchillyb wrote: post #184

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t actually say the account must be deleted. It says: “…must also allow users to INITIATE deletion of their account” Capitals mine. So I can allow the initiation of deletion but never actually completely delete the account… and my app complies.

> So I can allow the initiation of deletion but never actually completely delete the account… and my app complies. @TedDoesntTalk If the users that are requesting account deletions see that your app is purposely not complying, I don't imagine your app will be available for long in the app store. Your response is why Apple is implementing this change in the first place. Screw AOL and all of the rest of you making thin…

It can just go through a manual review and delete the parts that they're are legally required to delete. While I don't agree with a lot of the money laundering/terror financing laws banks shouldn't have to delete your data if you're trying to avoid taxes or whatever.

INITIATION is the important part, if they fail to delete the parts they're required to delete, F them: get them off the app store.

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#238

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

murgindrag wrote: post #131

As much as I like the change, the 3-month window seems unreasonable. I don't currently have AppStore apps, and these kinds of whiplash changes are part of the reason. Microsoft, for all its faults, is much better than Apple or Google here. Businesses take planning and strategy, and these things lead to drop-everything fires. Economies rely on stability.

[deleted]

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#239

Post by itake » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

debaserab2 wrote: post #222

ManBlanket wrote: post #214

This policy seems purposefully vague. "Explain its data retention/deletion policies and describe how a user can revoke consent and/or request deletion of the user’s data." My first question before looking into it was, "What an auth tenant or some other service that stores user data?" or, "what about like a banking or healthcare app that is just a portal for another system?" And, "What does deleted even mean? IsDelete…

When did "deleted" become a vague term? Deleted means removing as much PII as you reasonably have authority to do so. It means purging all that data from all databases with a guarantee that you will be removed completely from all snapshots in a reasonable amount of time. This should be the default, normal understanding of what it means to delete your account. It doesn't mean set a flag in a database so when your comp…

One thing that is confusing about the concept of "deleted" is how do you minimize fraud on a social platform without retaining PII (indefinitely?) of your users.

If there is a known fraudster and you have their selfie image, email address, and ML face vectors, the fraudster requests their account to be deleted. What should the company delete? Maybe the company can keep a one-way hashed email and face vectors, but what about hash-collisions or false positives?

If there is a user that wants their account deleted, but then they come back to the platform (maybe abusing a referral bonus or first-time-only coupon), how do you stop this fraud?

Re: Apple requires account deletion within apps in AppStore starting January 31

#240

Post by dfrankow » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

tylerrobinson wrote: post #34

gumby wrote: post #2

Wonder if this can be used to unsubscribe from The NY Times?

I am not in California, and was able to unsubscribe recently using a simple UI and I did not have to chat with anyone.

Where was the UI? Help us!