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A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

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Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#41

Post by elliekelly »

collegeburner wrote: post #15
nanna wrote: post #12

Horrific. Autism is about neural difference not deficiency . The problem is neurotypical societies pathologising and disabling neurodivergent people. What this article discusses is analogous to treatment for homosexuality. Shame on you, Duke university.

What a load of nonsense, autism is a horrible thing that should be entirely eliminated if possible. An autist probably will never be a salesman, for instance, we should make that not the case if we can because otherwise those opportunitues will stay off limits because of some peoples birth. Then there are the more severe cases where people cant speak and care for themselves. Thats not a society issue, thats a birth d…

I have a friend who has autism and he’s a fantastic salesperson because he just takes potential buyers at their word. You’re not the market for a car? Cool. Give him a call when you are and in the meantime let him know if you have any questions. And he genuinely means it.

That car is too expensive? Well what’s your budget? He’ll tell you right away whether he can make the numbers work with that model or he’ll show you the next best thing you can buy for that price range.

Is he the stereotypical slick sales guy? Not at all. But he sells lots of cars because he’s really good at what he does and, more importantly, customers really like working with him.

Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#42

Post by orthecreedence »

asdff wrote: post #35
orthecreedence wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like with ADHD, the benefit of a diagnosis is usually more 1-on-1 time with a teacher Funny, they wanted to put me on Ritalin, not give me more 1-on-1 time.

I wish I had a doctor who wanted to get me on ritalin when I was younger. Everyone I know who had been prescribed has sung praises even still today well out of schooling.

The thing is, I didn't have ADHD, I was just kind of rambunctious (and said the word "butt" one too many times, apparently). It was being used as a "I'm too lazy to teach" remedy, which was of course my fault, not the teacher's.

Luckily my parents laughed at the idea and thus the poor teacher had to actually do her job: teach kindergartners, not child-shaped vegetables.

Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#43

Post by shkkmo »

collegeburner wrote: post #27
gremlinsinc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an autist who's done sales (yes, I hate it, wouldn't ever choose that career), this is bullshit. I have adhd(inattentive, formerly ADD) and am high level on the ASD specrtum. Sure, my life gets fucked up a lot by my brain over analyzing things, or hyper focusing or just not focusing on anything at all, and I miss a lot of queues from loved ones, associates, etc.. but I also have movments of genius that everyone el…

Ok Im glad you were able to do that and that you can still have a good life. If we could fix it though, more opportunities would be available, maybe you'd have enjoyed it and could have it as a career you liked. There are also a lot of other people not so high functioning that literally just couldnt, and others who can't even live on their own as adults. Maybe you dont need a treatment like this but there are people…

And what if in the process if making everyone "salesman material" we divert a potential "weirdo genius" from making a much larger contribution?

Diversity is important and valuable. I highly doubt that ASD (and our cognitive diversity in general) is an evolutionary mistake.

That isn't to say that we shouldn't make tools and treatments available, but it absolutely does mean we shouldn't insist on "fixing" everyone with ASD.

Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#44

Post by gremlinsinc »

collegeburner wrote: post #27
gremlinsinc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an autist who's done sales (yes, I hate it, wouldn't ever choose that career), this is bullshit. I have adhd(inattentive, formerly ADD) and am high level on the ASD specrtum. Sure, my life gets fucked up a lot by my brain over analyzing things, or hyper focusing or just not focusing on anything at all, and I miss a lot of queues from loved ones, associates, etc.. but I also have movments of genius that everyone el…

Ok Im glad you were able to do that and that you can still have a good life. If we could fix it though, more opportunities would be available, maybe you'd have enjoyed it and could have it as a career you liked. There are also a lot of other people not so high functioning that literally just couldnt, and others who can't even live on their own as adults. Maybe you dont need a treatment like this but there are people…

So you're saying society needs more Salesmen, less Einstein's and Alan Turings? Wonder how ww2 would've fared without them.

Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#45

Post by gremlinsinc »

0xy wrote: post #30
collegeburner wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a load of nonsense, autism is a horrible thing that should be entirely eliminated if possible. An autist probably will never be a salesman, for instance, we should make that not the case if we can because otherwise those opportunitues will stay off limits because of some peoples birth. Then there are the more severe cases where people cant speak and care for themselves. Thats not a society issue, thats a birth d…

The most successful salesperson in the world Mark Zuckerberg has some form of mild autism, in my opinion (which is shared by some Facebook employees and on autism forums). He sold the world and the investment community that he's selling communication while he's really selling digital crack cocaine.

Pretty sure Elon Musk is ASD too, I'm ASD (slightly, self-diagnosed my wife has ADHD-C, I WAS diagnosed with ADHD-I 3 years ago, and after MANY youtube channel watches of ASD and ADD/ADHD stuff, and being told by 3 separate friends (all w/ ASD) that if they've got it, so do I, I just accepted it).. .

It does make sense, I ramble often, on a topic and I can get so focused on one subject that I neglect everything else for weeks, and sure that's a sign of ADHD, but it crosses over, my brother has it too, and I think my wife does as well, cause there's a female YT channel on it, and she and the host are like twins (behaviorially)...

I'm not a fan of Zuck or Musk (used to be a fan, but he's just a self-absorbed rich kid who got lucky because he had money to begin with), but I do see ASD as a two edged sword it can lead to greatness (I have brilliant ideas) or failure (I have fear of launching, because I'm very sensitive to criticism, and rejection) .. but having access to money makes fear of failure less because well you can afford better market testing, and hire people to help fill in the gaps...

TLDR: Not a fan of elon/zuck, both probably are ASD, so am I, my take is it didn't make them successful, it may have contributed, but it definitely didn't hurt them either, but people w/ ASD often get paired as being like the guy on the "Good Doctor" and I hate that, many w/ ASD you can't even tell until they tell you or you work in close quarters w/ them for awhile... it's not very pronounced on a lot of people and most programmers probably are on spectrum, it's a good career choice for us (almost perfect)... I'm one.

Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#46

Post by shkkmo »

thepasswordis wrote: post #37
nicoburns wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autistic people also often have capabilities that neurotypical people don't. So treating them would also be denying them opportunities. I think any treatment would have to be taken on a case by case basis. This particular one sounds like it doesn't work anyway.

Blind people also have capabilities that sighted people don’t have. Give the kids the treatment. If they want to choose later in life to blind themselves, fine, they’re adults. Don’t make them part of a crusade that they didn’t consent to. I say this as somebody who had several major surgeries as a child to save my eyesight.

> I say this as somebody who had several major surgeries as a child to save my eyesight.

The moral calculus here depends on how severe the impairment is and the potential risks / harms associated with the treatments.

At one end of the impairment/risk ratio, it is certainly ethical. Somewhere in the middle, I think you need to obtain the minor's consent. At the other end the treament isn't ever ethical ever to conduct on a minor.

What if the "sight saving" treatment has a high risk of them losing their sight at an older age when developing the abilities to navigate as a blind person are harder?

The issue here is an ongoing debate about which ASD differences are impairments (and about the severity.) and which are just stigmatized. I think to make this determination ethically you MUST listen to the range of opinions from adults who faced similar situations. If there isn't a clear consensus, I think we should be hesitant to impose treatment without consent.

Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#47

Post by shkkmo »

elliekelly wrote: post #41
collegeburner wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a load of nonsense, autism is a horrible thing that should be entirely eliminated if possible. An autist probably will never be a salesman, for instance, we should make that not the case if we can because otherwise those opportunitues will stay off limits because of some peoples birth. Then there are the more severe cases where people cant speak and care for themselves. Thats not a society issue, thats a birth d…

I have a friend who has autism and he’s a fantastic salesperson because he just takes potential buyers at their word. You’re not the market for a car? Cool. Give him a call when you are and in the meantime let him know if you have any questions. And he genuinely means it. That car is too expensive? Well what’s your budget? He’ll tell you right away whether he can make the numbers work with that model or he’ll show yo…

To take your argument even further:

It is good to have more than one type of salesperson. Some customers like/respond to one approach and some don't. Having a cognitively diverse salesforce should make your sales unit stronger and more flexible.

Monocultures are fragile and inflexible.

Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#48

Post by kypro »

I initially wrote out a rather long comment in response to this expressing my anger and frustration with how people on the spectrum are treated by neurotypicals, but I'm not sure it was very productive.

I guess I just want to say that this upsets me. I don't want to stop the research and I don't blame the parents, but I wish the world was more accepting of us sometimes. My whole neurotypicals have hurt me with their total disregard for the way my brain thinks and acts, yet somehow it's my fault for being like this.

Perhaps one of the more well known examples of this is what happened to James Damore. He got fired from Google for providing his honest feedback to Google's diversity program after they explicitly asked for feedback. But who's fault was it that he took their request for feedback in good faith and was fired by bad actors? His of course. I bring up this example because this is exactly how I've been made to feel throughout my in life. Whether it was when I was in school and getting detention for questioning religious teachings, or at home where I was disappointing my parents for not being the neurotypical boy my parents wanted, or at work when I'm saying the wrong things or sharing opinions that are not permitted.

A few years ago I was fired from my job and I'm almost certain this was because other people in my team expressed that they felt awkward around me and that I didn't fit in. I was there for years and I thought of these people as my friends. It hurt me and confused me so much that after this I struggled to find employment for about a year and I ended up becoming extremely depressed and self medicating with alcohol.

I'm not trying to blame anyone. I get I'm awkward and why people wouldn't want to be around me. But it just hurts because all I want is for people to like me. I spend so much energy every day just trying to be liked, but rarely will anyone do the same for me. It's sad because people on the spectrum tend to be very loyal. We seem to naturally develop very deep connections with the people around us and it hurts a lot when we're rejected.

In the same way we can't build the world around left-handed people, I accept we can't help but live in a world with neurotypical social norms. All I'm asking is you make a little room for us. A lot of us are pretty smart and although we can be a bit weird we don't mean any harm. It's just hard trying to simulate being a normal human 24 hours a day. In the same way left-handedness isn't a disease, I don't think I am either. I know some people are not as fortunate as me and in those cases treatments like this could really help, but a lot of us just need a bit of space to be different rather than to be treated. When I'm on my own or with my partner who understands my quirks, I've never felt I'm at any disadvantage at all.

Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#49

Post by CalRobert »

hkt wrote: post #11
CalRobert wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, can you elaborate on your qualms with ABA? After my sister's belated diagnosis around 1990 (it was still quite rare compared to the present) my mom became an ABA practitioner (eventually getting a PhD). Sister went from completely non-verbal to speaking well, which was remarkable considering that there were professionals saying she'd always need to live in an institution. As best I can tell ABA ma…

My son's speech therapist described ABA as horse breaking, and the (way more humane) approach she uses as horse whispering. The approach she uses is JASPER: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34348479/ Edit: a part of the criticism I've heard for ABA is that it doesn't generalise, so kids know how to function only in a very limited set of circumstances and are often frozen with anxiety outside of them. It is also an all…

That's definitely true re: all consuming. It literally became my mom's entire purpose, and from the moment she woke up to the moment she went to bed she was working to get her daughter to talk.

Re: A Controversial Autism Treatment Is About to Become a Big Business

#50

Post by CalRobert »

nanna wrote: post #12

Horrific. Autism is about neural difference not deficiency . The problem is neurotypical societies pathologising and disabling neurodivergent people. What this article discusses is analogous to treatment for homosexuality. Shame on you, Duke university.

It's a spectrum, right there in the name. People with severe autism often can't even speak. My sister didn't say her first word until she was four. Watching my own just-turned-four daughter go on at length about her day and tell stories, I can't imagine my mom's fear.
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