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Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

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641–650 of 699 posts

Re: Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

#641
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who is going to break up TikTok or whatever comes next/instead? The social media is like tobacco, and FB increasing the engagement at all costs is like when Big Tobacco were increasing addictiveness of the cigarettes. Like with tobacco, the way to deal with the issue is to wean the population off by in particular educating the population about the damage it does to them . Btw, "Statement from Mark Zuckerberg" - t…

To be fair to the guy, he was 19 then. Who amongst us hasn't said something (many things, in my case at least) stupid at 19?

how many stupid things you said at 19 made you $100B? I'm pretty sure that if a stupid thing you said at 19 had made you a $100B by the age of 30 and continued to made many billions after that you'd pretty much continue to believe and follow that stupid thing.

Re: Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

#643
post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably too late for any specific publicly traded company that already exists, but social media as a protocol, with forced interoperability if necessary, is the way to solve this. Many regional phone carriers doesn't prevent people from communicating across regions. Of course, it does cost more, so the question becomes who is willing and able to pay for a socially less harmful means of networking individuals wi…

> social media as a protocol, with forced interoperability if necessary, is the way to solve this Hey, if they get that implemented for Facebook, maybe they can try to make it work with health care records too. Good luck with that...

here's a business model for it:

Implement ActivityPub (an existing protocol recommended by the W3C), and offer their underlying social networking services as hosted and managed software for big orgs to operate on their own domain. With interoperability, they'll work across domains. Target customer is anyone with at least 100K followers (so gov, institutions, media, et cetera).

Re: Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

#644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ultimately just a college kid with a laptop who ended up in some circumstances that snowballed When will this “just luck” characterization of Zuck die? His entire company was certain they should sell for $1B, and most executives resigned when he didn’t. He maneuvered control of the majority of voting shares, how many other founders have done that? Instagram and WhatsApp were genius acquisitions everybody at the tim…

Nah, he's really smart, but implying 1T is a measure of his genius is ridiculous. Not only does it downplay the massive contributions of hundreds of people including Peter Thiel and Cheryl Sandberg, but it ignores the market conditions that led to thefacebook.com going viral, not to mention the Winklevosses, who got paid billions in today's valuation. Do you believe that if Zuck never met the Winklevosses, he would h…

I'm disagreeing with the "just a college kid" portrayal. There are of course a few circumstances greatly helped the trajectory, as did many other smart people help it along. What I'm trying to imprint is that without Zuck being very intelligent, the level of success Facebook would've had would be far far smaller.

Re: Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

#645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are downvoted for the reason I just stated. Why would you upvote someone you believe is opposed to your entire existence based on what political party they associated with?

This just doesn’t resonate with my experience on HN. Ad-hominems are aggressively downvoted, and bad-faith arguments usually are too, even in political threads. There’s clearly something being valued higher than party affiliation by HN’ers else that wouldn’t be the case.

That isn't the issue. The issue is that good-faith arguments are downvoted as well. If you are Republican, there are certain ideas that will instantly get downvoted simply because of your political affiliation. You could say, the most abundant element in the atmosphere is Nitrogen as a Republican and you'd get a bunch of downvotes and people arguing just cause they think all Republicans are anti-vax idiots.

Same with Democrats depending on where you are and what you're commenting on. People are polarized to the point that they no longer care what you have to say. If they think you're with the other political party it is instant downvote.

Re: Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

#646
post #68

I'm having a hard time reconciling all this right now. On the one hand, from the outside, I can see the actions that Facebook takes and they seem awfully guilty of what they are accused of. But on the other hand, I personally know and have previously worked with some of the people who work on trust and safety, specifically for kids. Good people who have kids of their own and who care about protecting people, especial…

Aaron Swartz wrote a great book review of Moral Mazes[1] which touches on this.

http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/bizethics

Re: Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

#647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zuckerberg is making an almost entirely emotional appeal in his statement. Most of his claims are not backed up / buttressed with facts, numbers, and specifics. The statement is designed to make a reader feel bad for Facebook as if Facebook was a friend, and not a corporation with billions of dollars in quarterly profits. Though the statement seems well-meaning, etc., it is weaselly and manipulative. It also convenie…

How so? He asserted several apparently factual claims that would basically undermine or make irrelevant most of the commentary in this thread, for example: - Social media can't cause "polarization" because the measurements of that are going down in most of the world, except the USA. But social media is heavily used everywhere. - It makes no sense to claim an organization doesn't care about X when it heavily funds res…

Ah, great question. The pattern I'm pointing to is a little subtle. I think at this point it pays to be extremely sceptical of Zuckerberg.

(Quoting from Zuckerberg's original post)

> "And if social media were as responsible for polarizing society as some people claim, then why are we seeing polarization increase in the US while it stays flat or declines in many countries with just as heavy use of social media around the world?"

This certainly needs a citation. Ethnic conflict in Ethiopia, division in Britain around Brexit, and US polarization would seem to be obvious counter examples. It should certainly be said that correlation is not causation. Also, note that the claim that 'social media doesn't cause polarization anywhere / everywhere in the world' is a subtle bait and switch from "Facebook causes polarization in certain areas" or "Facebook's lack of robust, well-staffed safety mechanisms allow it to be exploited to cause polarization in certain areas."

> "If we wanted to ignore research, why would we create an industry-leading research program to understand these important issues in the first place? If we didn't care about fighting harmful content, then why would we employ so many more people dedicated to this than any other company in our space -- even ones larger than us?"

There is more than one way to care about a research program, but absolute amount of budget spent on X is not the same thing as relative budget priority. For a company that made 54 billion in profit last quarter, it'd be more surprising if they had no research program. Zuckerberg does not present any specifics here -- what percentage of gross revenue is the research program? How many people are employed to fight content, and how does this compare to how many people are employed to encourage growth? And what's the point of research if the results are not acted upon? The whistleblower was pretty clear that the research doesn't matter even if suggested fixes will cause a Speaking of Meaningful Social Interactions (MSI), the whistleblower specifically said that there is a foundational problem with how MSI is defined, because it includes the number of comments a post receives. Even without intending it, it is easy to see that controversial posts will attract more attention. Zuckerberg cites no evidence about the relative percentage of comments that are angry vs other emotions, and how this has changed.

> "That said, I'm worried about the incentives that are being set here. We have an industry-leading research program so that we can identify important issues and work on them. It's disheartening to see that work taken out of context and used to construct a false narrative that we don't care. If we attack organizations making an effort to study their impact on the world, we're effectively sending the message that it's safer not to look at all, in case you find something that could be held against you."

Zuckerberg is complaining about incentive problems? The whistleblower has said that Facebook's very policies make it "not care" even if individuals do. This is also what comes across in the WSJ articles. In other words: the narrative isn't false, and this has been documented. His point about the specific incentive problem of leaked research is interesting, but it's a case of an abstract concern (for other company's research) vs. very real and well documented harm Facebook is a) doing now, and b) per the whistleblower, is unequipped to solve alone.

Also, at one point in Zuckerberg's missive, he shifts the locus of responsibility from Facebook to Congress: "..at some level the right body to assess tradeoffs between social equities is our democratically elected Congress. For example, what is the right age for teens to be able to use internet services?" Deciding what the "right" age is can take several forms. A panel of seasoned jurists, child psychologists, policy experts, etc., can spend a long time debating what the "right" age is in the universal sense. Or, Facebook could take stand, err on the side of caution, and say that 17 is a better age than 13, and detail why they think so.

Re: Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

#648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, agreed.. Well to start, Facebook is neither good or nor bad - it is not a person and does not have morality. The human mind is not really capable of dealing with an abstract entity such as a corporation so we anthropomorphize the large mess of people, software, and hardware presenting us a little app on our phones as imbued with a personality and morality. Then we debate whether this mess, which has Zuch's…

Your argument is the same as “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people”. It’s still something with potential to cause a great deal of harm and should be regulated. > Why would Zuckerberg intentionally want to fail at this task and have people hate his company? Nobody wants to fail at anything. Doesn’t stop people from failing all the time. Nobody wants to get fired but if you suck at your job you get fired all the…

> Your argument is the same as “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people”.

Sort of, the argument is more like "Computers don't kill people. People with computers kill people by starting revolutions, committing online crimes, etc. Also, people with computers do lots of non lethal and helpful stuff as well too."

Facebook and mass social media are like that computer. Lots of benefits, lots of detriments as well. Doesn't mean you should cancel the computer.

Re: Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

#649
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does breaking up a company actually do for the consumer? I don't think telecoms are any better for the consumer decades after we broke Bell. There is strong incentive to just form a cartel like telecoms today rather than a competitive environment that is beneficial for the consumer.

The breakup was a huge win for consumers. Long-distance rates dropped significantly due to competition and the telephone system became much more open. And I think it dramatically aided early internet adoption. If you read "When Wizards Stay Up Late" you'll see how big a barrier AT&T was to the adoption of packet-switched networks, rather than the circuit-switched networks they sold people. How far would the Internet…

It's hard to say how things would have gone differently, but I don't think it would have been much different. Looking at the ISP world today long after the dust settled, it's not that much different from the Bell era in terms of consumer choices. I have one choice in ISP for my address. A de facto monopoly entrenched by a lackadaisical attitude towards expanding infrastructure connectivity.

Re: Statement from Mark Zuckerberg

#650
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zuck is desperate to be regulated: he asks for Congress to step in every time he’s asked. Regulation would be awesome for Facebook: not only would it be a fig leaf for all their social problems (“hey, it’s not our problem anymore”), it would also stifle any potential competitors out of their market. The costs of regulation are regressive: much more easily absorbed by BigCos than any startup.

That's an extremely pessimistic view of regulation. Somehow other industries manage to do fine despite it. In the EU, GDPR somehow hasn't snuffed out all small businesses.

I mean, the harmful effects of regulation are much less visible then the harmful effects of what is being regulated. We don't know to what degree the GDPR has snuffed out potential small businesses.
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