Clean environment could become U.N. human right • Hacker News Board

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#101

Post by shock-value » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

mgbmtl wrote: post #82

maccolgan wrote: post #63

A "clean" environment is so subjective and temporal, I don't understand how it can be a "human" right... Why does UN keep digging into this hole of irrelevancy and bs?

All rights subjective and temporal. Just take the question of freedom of speech, and how that evolves in time, how it varies between countries (even between allied countries, such as the US and Canada). One could argue that the desire for an increased level of comfort of one set of people should not happen at the detriment of the right to clean water, for example, of another set of people. Many countries will have th…

As in this case, the "right" to clean water (or any other exhaustible resource) makes no sense -- at least if described in such blunt terms.

Hypothetically, what happens in a drought, when there is no water for anyone? Have your rights been violated? If so, by whom?

If it's rather described as a right to nondiscrimination in the distribution of clean water (with respect to some set of properties, which could include wealth or ability to pay, but likely couldn't include large-scale geographic location due to distribution logistics), then that actually starts to make sense and can be realistically debated.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#102

Post by gowld » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

a_diplomat wrote: post #73

Hi. Diplomat working with UN issues here. The issue at hand here is not this resolution in itself. It's the fact that opening up human rights to "new" rights sets a precedent. And that precedent will be used by other countries to shift the language on human rights in a more authoritarian direction - or dilute human rights as such. So it's basically about using one set of issues, which in substance are hard to fight,…

It's all wankery anyway. A member of the UN only care about "human rights" (or anything else the UN votes on) until it conflicts with the member's self-interest.

The UN is a diplomatic discussion forum and place to organize joint projects. It's an anarchy, not a not a government.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#103

Post by baud147258 » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

z3ncyberpunk wrote: post #45

blacktriangle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're saying no to a Chinese puppet org (the UN) using clean environment as an attack on them while China does nothing to address their environmental impact.

China has more renewable energy than any one in the world

didn't they just built coal power plants across their border in neighboring countries?

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#104

Post by reillyse » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

a_diplomat wrote: post #73

Hi. Diplomat working with UN issues here. The issue at hand here is not this resolution in itself. It's the fact that opening up human rights to "new" rights sets a precedent. And that precedent will be used by other countries to shift the language on human rights in a more authoritarian direction - or dilute human rights as such. So it's basically about using one set of issues, which in substance are hard to fight,…

Maybe also working for the US or the UK? If everyone in the UN is in agreement what is the problem? If In the future you don’t agree with other human rights then don’t approve them but don’t claim that you’d love to vote for this resolution but that would somehow force you to also vote for another one down the line, that is not how it works.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#105

Post by modo_mario » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

zohch wrote: post #81

caoilte wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unhelpful whataboutery. China isn't directly relevant. I could just as truthfully point out that the USA is a disgusting bully and that would be unhelpful too. We wouldn't think it reasonable if someone on trial for embezzlement asked the jury to acquit because there are other people out in the world committing murder. We only put up with it in news and politics because we have normalized and accepted propaga…

> This is unhelpful whataboutery. China isn't directly relevant. It is. Because it is one of the biggest threats to human rights and to a clean environment. If UN can't tackle China, they are feckless, but of course we all know this. This is a stick to beat the west with while China and Russia and the new axis of evil get to keep running rough-shot over the rest of the world.

>Because it is one of the biggest threats to human rights and to a clean environment.

So China just almost caught up to Europe as far as CO2 emissions per capita goes and is nowhere close to the US whilst putting measures to reverse the trend. That comparison used to be ridiculous just a few decades ago when they were comparatively massively underdeveloped.

Often this involves the whole blame-shifting where one poses one shouldn't do anything because there's someone doing less/worse. But in this case it's not even true. Not even if they lied about their numbers by

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#106

Post by enkid » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #66

enkid wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is it exactly. Western country have to actually follow the international laws that are put into place. Countries like China just have to claim they follow the laws.

Is that a joke? Most "western" countries have wiped their asses with international laws. Be it illegal wars, illegal kidnappings and torture (US), illegal deportations and violations of international agreements signed months prior(UK), bombing a neutral ship in a foreign country ( France), etc. etc. The examples are too numerous to list, but here's some academic material just for the US: https://scholarship.law.georg…

Your missing my point. Your comment is exactly why the US doesn't want these type of rules. The US is held accountable by people in the US. China doesn't allow that. So yes, the US breaks (maybe bends? I'm sure you could find lawyers that would say none of these are against international law) but them gets domestic blow back for it. China doesn't.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#107

Post by breckenedge » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #74

vagrantJin wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. The anti-Chinese rhetoric on this thread is bordering on horrifying. I had to ctrl+shift+F the webpage to see if I missed something on the Reuters article relating to China. What does Chinese policy on human rights have anything to do with the above mentioned article?

If I had to guess, it's because China is one of the most notoriously polluted countries that are also on the security council that will oversee this bill. While the United States and UK are pretty much guaranteed to veto, I think a lot of people are interpreting China as the swing vote here.

According to the article, Russia also opposes it in the current form. Doesn’t really matter since it’s non binding and there’s no hope of this being ratified by the US Congress.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#108

Post by shrikant » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

a_diplomat wrote: post #73

Hi. Diplomat working with UN issues here. The issue at hand here is not this resolution in itself. It's the fact that opening up human rights to "new" rights sets a precedent. And that precedent will be used by other countries to shift the language on human rights in a more authoritarian direction - or dilute human rights as such. So it's basically about using one set of issues, which in substance are hard to fight,…

> It's the fact that opening up human rights to "new" rights sets a precedent.

Does this mean no new human right can ever be established? And by extension, that the set of human rights currently in the UDHR are "complete"?

(I don't have a strong opinion yet, just found this framing curious...)

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#109

Post by mcdonje » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:44 PM UTC

a_diplomat wrote: post #73

Hi. Diplomat working with UN issues here. The issue at hand here is not this resolution in itself. It's the fact that opening up human rights to "new" rights sets a precedent. And that precedent will be used by other countries to shift the language on human rights in a more authoritarian direction - or dilute human rights as such. So it's basically about using one set of issues, which in substance are hard to fight,…

Confused about how that works.

I believe the part about authoritarians trying to trojan horse bills that erode our rights disguised as unobjectionable bills. We see it all the time with bills that restrict our right to privacy disguised as anti-child porn legislation. People who come out in favor of the 4th amendment are painted as vile criminals.

That said, I don't see how it works in this instance. Care to elaborate?

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#110

Post by zohch » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

modo_mario wrote: post #105

zohch wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is unhelpful whataboutery. China isn't directly relevant. It is. Because it is one of the biggest threats to human rights and to a clean environment. If UN can't tackle China, they are feckless, but of course we all know this. This is a stick to beat the west with while China and Russia and the new axis of evil get to keep running rough-shot over the rest of the world.

>Because it is one of the biggest threats to human rights and to a clean environment. So China just almost caught up to Europe as far as CO2 emissions per capita goes and is nowhere close to the US whilst putting measures to reverse the trend. That comparison used to be ridiculous just a few decades ago when they were comparatively massively underdeveloped. Often this involves the whole blame-shifting where one poses…

> So China just almost caught up to Europe as far as CO2 emissions per capita goes and is nowhere close to the US whilst putting measures to reverse the trend

I said clean environment. Not sure why you are changing the subject, but lets see:

https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution#top-20-river-so...

> Geographically we see that the majority of the most polluting rivers are located in Asia. River Yangtze, the top polluting river, had an input of approximately 333,000 tonnes in 2015 — over 4 percent of annual ocean plastic pollution.

> Often this involves the whole blame-shifting

Okay but then just don't shift the blame from countries that threatens a clean environment to countries that do not.