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Clean environment could become U.N. human right

reuters.com

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Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#41

Post by Barrin92 »

oytis wrote: post #23
Barrin92 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not sure I follow, we can't create new ecological rights because some countries might do better on them than the US, so the only legitimate rights on the planet are the ones that extend the political power of the United States? Because you know the exact thing you're afraid of has actually been done in the name of civil liberties and political rights, how many small nations have been crushed in the name of freedom an…

Environmental concerns are important, human rights are important too, and they are not comparable. You can't compensate for the lack of human and civil rights by polluting less or buying carbon credits. Putting everything in the "human rights" bucket create an impression that you can.

I think you can to be honest. Or at least, the same accusation works the reverse way, you can't compensate for ecological transgressions by appealing to some other liberty. "our firms pour lead into the river, but we have freedom of speech" is less of a sound argument than it seems to people steeped in that culture.

At least with ecological concerns you can make the case that it is the base layer for all organic life on earth, you can live unfree but you can't live without a biosphere, I actually think it would make some sense for universal human rights to reflect that order of priorities. Recognizing our shared biological reality might be an easier sell for a universal rights framework than some liberal political rights not even shared by a majority of people on the planet.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#42

Post by _hilro »

croes wrote: post #9
throwawaybchr wrote: post #6

China has been denying people human rights daily, what does the UN do to them?

Just ask yourself why the UN lacks the power to do anything without permission by the big players.

Because sovereign nations and their citizens aren't going to kowtow to some unelected supranational organisation?

7 billion people in the world and they should all be ruled by a bunch of bureaucrats???

I hope that day never comes.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#43

Post by oytis »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #27
oytis wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Environmental concerns are important, human rights are important too, and they are not comparable. You can't compensate for the lack of human and civil rights by polluting less or buying carbon credits. Putting everything in the "human rights" bucket create an impression that you can.

> You can't compensate for the lack of human and civil rights by polluting less or buying carbon credits. To an extent, you can – obviously not by buying carbon credits, though. Doing things that actually improve (or, reduce less slowly) the living conditions of humans is comparable to poor living conditions of humans.

I think I have to disagree with that. Human and civil rights are not just about living conditions, it's more about such hard to define thing as respect for human dignity which can be preserved in various conditions.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#44

Post by vagrantJin »

throwawaybchr wrote: post #6

China has been denying people human rights daily, what does the UN do to them?

Wow. The anti-Chinese rhetoric on this thread is bordering on horrifying.

I had to ctrl+shift+F the webpage to see if I missed something on the Reuters article relating to China.

What does Chinese policy on human rights have anything to do with the above mentioned article?

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#45

Post by z3ncyberpunk »

blacktriangle wrote: post #18
jefflombardjr wrote: post #2

The US and Britain aren't saying no to a clean environment - BP, Chevron, and Exxon are.

They're saying no to a Chinese puppet org (the UN) using clean environment as an attack on them while China does nothing to address their environmental impact.

China has more renewable energy than any one in the world

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#46

Post by z3ncyberpunk »

caoilte wrote: post #30
bamboozled wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is a disgusting bully. They’re intentionally rattling people in Taiwan by flying war planes at them to “stress them out”. The UN is a joke. Something should be done.

This is unhelpful whataboutery. China isn't directly relevant. I could just as truthfully point out that the USA is a disgusting bully and that would be unhelpful too. We wouldn't think it reasonable if someone on trial for embezzlement asked the jury to acquit because there are other people out in the world committing murder. We only put up with it in news and politics because we have normalized and accepted propaga…

No, you should confront and fix both problems. You're argument is entirely dismissive of China's actions.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#47

Post by throwaway0a5e »

z3ncyberpunk wrote: post #45
blacktriangle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're saying no to a Chinese puppet org (the UN) using clean environment as an attack on them while China does nothing to address their environmental impact.

China has more renewable energy than any one in the world

And what fraction of their energy is that?

They probably have more coal plants than anyone else in the world too.

Citing raw numbers is pointless when China is involved since everything is so numerous there.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#48

Post by croes »

_hilro wrote: post #42
croes wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just ask yourself why the UN lacks the power to do anything without permission by the big players.

Because sovereign nations and their citizens aren't going to kowtow to some unelected supranational organisation? 7 billion people in the world and they should all be ruled by a bunch of bureaucrats??? I hope that day never comes.

Sure, how to you explain the WTO and the IMF? 7 billion people in the world are already ruled by a bunch of bureaucrats. But it's ok if it's for profit and not human rights, I guess.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#49

Post by chki »

rtkwe wrote: post #37
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #17

This article is weirdly devoid of relevant information about the objections. They mention legal concerns from Washington but don’t explain them for some reason. I’m also very confused about this line about halfway down the article: > The United States is not currently a Council member but is vying for a seat and can still join debates as an observer. Are they saying that the US isn’t even a voting member of the counc…

Any resolution from the UN has to get approval from the security council iirc so if the US or UK object it'll never be formally adopted by the UN. > They mention legal concerns from Washington but don’t explain them for some reason. Odds are they haven't actually been spelled out because they amount to "it'll cause huge disruptions to business because they'll all suddenly be suable for their decades of environmental…

> Any resolution from the UN has to get approval from the security council iirc so if the US or UK object it'll never be formally adopted by the UN.

That's not correct. The general assembly can adopt resolutions and is meant to adopt resolutions by itself. Those resolutions are non-binding however.

The security council needs to agree if the resolution touches on security relevant topics. And the security council is the only UN organ that can issue binding resolutions.

Re: Clean environment could become U.N. human right

#50

Post by fellodip »

bamboozled wrote: post #40
caoilte wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unhelpful whataboutery. China isn't directly relevant. I could just as truthfully point out that the USA is a disgusting bully and that would be unhelpful too. We wouldn't think it reasonable if someone on trial for embezzlement asked the jury to acquit because there are other people out in the world committing murder. We only put up with it in news and politics because we have normalized and accepted propaga…

Wrong. The US is not flying bombers capable of carrying nuclear warheads at large populations just to intimidate them.

https://apnews.com/article/europe-europe-air-force-russia-7f...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/russia-mig-31-...

US does these things, its just not highlighted front page material in American press when it happens, so it goes unnoticed to American populations unlike when adversaries like Russia fly bombers near Alaska.

Also US conducted similar maneuvers as what China did to Taiwan but to Iraq preceeding the Iraq invasion.

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