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Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

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Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#281

Post by dragonwriter »

disneygibson wrote: post #169
jagrsw wrote: post #159

".. because our founding fathers .." It's interesting to see that all sides of political dispute in US, even parties (like this one) which want to cater to the seemingly more rational and less emotional part of the populace use the argument of "the founding fathers wanted it this way, so... that must be the correct way of doing things forever".

The moment that the Founding Fathers cease to be the mythology glue holding the nation together will be the minute that the country fractures into 20 different nation-states.

> The moment that the Founding Fathers cease to be the mythology glue holding the nation together will be the minute that the country fractures into 20 different nation-states.

No, it won't.

Because the Founding Fathers aren't now the mythology glue holding the nation together. American national identity is mich more (and much fuzzier) than that.

Appeal to the Founding Fathers is just a tired political cliche.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#282

Post by Brakenshire »

kergonath wrote: post #252
dagw wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Economically middle in the road" is somewhat around classic Social Democrat politics Even more conservative parties in Europe are moving that way. Just look at the Tories in the UK for example, proposing massive government spending plans paid for by raising taxes.

That’s surprising only if you consider the Tories as being economically liberal. They are conservative in the sense that they look after the interests of the old aristocracy and a coalition of the rich. Their policies are intended to benefit a specific subset of the population. Their taxes (as well as things like the universal credit cuts) are perfectly aligned with that ideology. They don’t have a problem with the c…

They increased UC for the pandemic, and then reduced it, much like the Furlough scheme, and both of those policies would have been considered centre or centre-left responses if done by a centre or centre-left party.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#283

Post by tsimionescu »

carlosdp wrote: post #98

I feel like a lot of people take it as obvious that ranked-choice is just better. I have an alternate take: We just went through a simple first-past-the-post election in the US that a significant percentage of voters believe was rigged. This is the simplest system imaginable, the data is easily available to verify it was not rigged. Do we really think the average american will be able to grok how ranked-choice voting…

Alternatively, you could view the situation as: if the even the simplest voting system can be successfully attacked by a convincing enough demagogue, perhaps the complexity of the voting system isn't that important and we wouldn't actually lose much by picking a better but more complex system.

In the end, the attacks were not on the vote system itself, but on the real-life voting process - fear of double-voting, of fraudulent votes, of dead people voting etc.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#284

Post by qsort »

netcan wrote: post #258
qsort wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect a huge part of Macron's success was his opponent. France elections have a top-2 runoff, and I wouldn't be surprised if many electors were like "I don't like Macron but I really don't want Le Pen to win". The whole "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world.

It's always true that the election system itself plays a big role in how/what candidates get elected. It's also true that the US electoral structure was a huge factor in Biden or Trump's election. Change the structure of the primary or main election, get different results. That notwithstanding, it's also true that elements of Trump or Bidens' success might translate. In any case, the " The whole "socially progressive…

> If you compare changes though, these orientations have been politically powerful for decades

They have, but they usually don't go toghether, that was my point.

Social rights advocacy usually goes hand in hand with far-left positions, while more centrist economic policy usually implies conservative social positions.

I believe it's been a policy driver because it's kind of an "elite ideology", which is overrepresented in educated or powerful circles, which have relatively more soft-power.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#285

Post by southerntofu »

disneygibson wrote: post #171
Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

And like Macron, Yang seems to have the support of globalist technocratic elites. Very similar situation indeed.

Yes, that's just more of the same "managerial feudalism" David Graeber talks about.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#286

Post by Juliate »

southerntofu wrote: post #260
Karto wrote: post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

> "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm (...) with very few previously known political figures in its ranks "En marche" is not "Let's go" ("allons-y") but "March on", a military reference. They had key figures in the previous government, for example Macron who was ministry of economy and supervised the destruction of working law protections (2016 reforms) for the "socialist" (huge quotation marks)…

You seem to suggest Manuel Valls has also been prime minister under Macron presidency (after having been under Hollande's), which he hasn't.

Also, the "neither left not right is also a fascist meme" is both true and misleading: when you have several leftist parties that reclaim being "the only true left" for themselves, portraying anything else as evil or stupid, and rightist parties that move further and further to the extreme, and both wings being plagued with moral/financial scandals, you may as well consider that the left/right dichotomy is broken, or that the parties broke it joyfully.

So trying to pave a way with another, maybe more subtle and demanding understanding than just left/right, progress/conservatism, is not completely absurd either. And that, without going necessarily right into fascism.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#287

Post by netcan »

hef19898 wrote: post #176
jagrsw wrote: post #159

".. because our founding fathers .." It's interesting to see that all sides of political dispute in US, even parties (like this one) which want to cater to the seemingly more rational and less emotional part of the populace use the argument of "the founding fathers wanted it this way, so... that must be the correct way of doing things forever".

That American obsession with the founding fathers always puzzles me as a non-American. France is in tis 5th Republic, the second since WW2. Germany went through a lot of Government changes since the 18th century as well, as did a lot of other countries in Europe. With the exception of some wierdos nobody puts those long gone governments on a pedestal.

I think you have a point in terms of choice of symbols, but ultimately... these are just symbolic choices. The nature of politics, usually, is that it defines and harnesses "who we are."

That's kind of what defines politics. EU politics may be where a lot of power is, but it's not where most of the politics is. "Who we are as europeans," beyond a point, isn't a sensible way to start a sentence. No morality tale or symbol of the EU commands that kind of sentiment.

In the US, it's the opposite. State politics might house a lot of power, but the politics is a lot meeker. "Who we are as Californians" commands a lot less sentiment that "as Americans." No one cares who fathered California, or how many constitutions it has had. There isn't much existential anxiety about how California might lose influence relative to Texas.

So, whether it's the constitution of the 5th Republic, founding fathers... it's all just symbols, like a flag, but with more depth. Ancestor tales aren't new. It's rare that they don't play a major role in human culture.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#288

Post by Juliate »

Juliate wrote: post #286
southerntofu wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm (...) with very few previously known political figures in its ranks "En marche" is not "Let's go" ("allons-y") but "March on", a military reference. They had key figures in the previous government, for example Macron who was ministry of economy and supervised the destruction of working law protections (2016 reforms) for the "socialist" (huge quotation marks)…

You seem to suggest Manuel Valls has also been prime minister under Macron presidency (after having been under Hollande's), which he hasn't. Also, the "neither left not right is also a fascist meme" is both true and misleading: when you have several leftist parties that reclaim being "the only true left" for themselves, portraying anything else as evil or stupid, and rightist parties that move further and further to…

Another way which, granted, with En Marche, utterly failed so far (but perhaps does one need several runs for a party to gain a consistent backbone).

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#289

Post by cnlevy »

southerntofu wrote: post #280

So their program is focused on managerialism and "progress". I could not see a single line on the homepage about ecology and how industrial capitalism is threatening to destroy our entire planet. But there's arguments for easier taxes and blockchain technology. WHO CARES IF WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE?! There's "basic income" mentioned but nothing else about social justice and redistribution of the massive wealth the olig…

Your platform has a name: Anarchism. I'm interested to know if there a concrete examples of it in the past where it has worked well (at a country level) ?

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#290

Post by Leherenn »

kergonath wrote: post #247
hef19898 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to qualify for the run-off, Macron had to end up in the top 2 first. Which he did. And that En Marche got the parliament as well was a bit of a surprise. Curious to see how things play out next year so.

Yeah, him getting a majority was the bigger surprise. The presidential election is a popularity contest. Both major, traditional parties shot themselves in the foot repeatedly and lost a lot of their appeal. Then, in a runoff against Le Pen, you just win by not being a Nazi. Getting enough MPs, so many of them outsiders, on a technocratic platform (so without pulling th usual emotional strings) was quite impressive.…

> the end result is not great

Do you mean having outsiders elected to parliament or the whole Macron government/term?

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