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Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

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Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#681
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gaming industry would like to have a word... In a sense, companies are right now incentived to develop the most effective 'digital crack', because anything that hijacks the reward pathway of the brain more effectively leads to more profit. It'll be quite interesting to see how the public discourse around this will progress, since digital entertainment isn't as easy to publicly mark as 'bad' as drugs were. On the…

> The gaming industry would like to have a word And I would like to have a word with them. They've been given free reign to turn our kids into absolute digital junkies (this is coming from a self-diagnosed sometimes-addict who realizes these kids are on another level ), deliberately dangling carrots that reward 24/7 engagement in the activity. > digital entertainment isn't as easy to publicly mark as 'bad' as drugs w…

Completely true, I think the mobile sector is the worst offender. That said, people can perfectly spend insane amounts of time on titles that doesn't employ these mechanisms. But the industry got far worse in more recent years.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegal, liable, doesn't matter --- you want to use the state to drive certain kinds of ranking off the internet. Fine. What, precisely, is the line between algorithms acceptable to you and algorithms not? What is the precise conduct that would make liability attach to a ranking algorithm? You can emote, but you can't describe what exactly it is you would turn into a law.

> You can emote, but you can't describe what exactly it is you would turn into a law. I thought I made it pretty clear from the outset I was talking about removing CDA Sec 230 protections for sites using bespoke (i.e. proprietary) curation algorithms for their feeds.

So any filter algorithm would be okay if open source?

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your proposal would make HN-style comment ranking illegal. Do you really want to live in the world you propose?

HN's rankings are not personalized, so no filter bubbles. HN is fully moderated, FB is barely moderated. HN nerfs their algos. FB weaponizes theirs. HN applies their rules fairly, evenly. FB does not. FB has ads. HN does not. FB weaponizes PII. HN does not. Etc. Comparing HN to FB is like bicycle vs freight train, firecracker vs nukes, nice bath vs a hurricane.

No, actually, it's not any of these things. It's on HN that dang applies special rules to your comments if he doesn't like you. FB's algorithm is impersonal.

Your list of criteria is legally inactionable. Neither you nor anyone else can write down what precisely it is that FB should be prohibited from doing. All I see is a bunch of unproductive rhetoric about how this is bad or that is bad. Blah blah, filter bubbles, moderation, whatever.

What is the exact definition of the criteria you would use to prohibit ranking algorithms?

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#684
post #77

I think a lot of people are choosing to ignore that a lot of companies have done things in the past that were not illegal at the time of action. However, those actions were later decided to be made illegal because the behavior was deemed to be antithetical to our values. For example, Standard Oil did not break any laws in its ruthless consolidation of the nascent oil industry. In fact, it exploited the law to allow i…

Illegality is dangerous to define and enforce when it comes to speech. Especially if Glenn Greenwald[1] is right that this is not an attempt to weaken facebook, but to commandeer its power to censor. Directory of Policy Communications for Facebook Lena Pietch just called for "standard rules" for the whole internet, increasing the danger because whomever would get that power could widely censor unwanted popular dissen…

This is an interesting and somewhat irritating take by Greenwald. I'll just put a counterpoint to one point he made that I was careful to get a grasp of what was going on:

Greenwald [Today]> Their control over multiple huge platforms that they purchased enables them to punish and even destroy competitors, as we saw when Apple, Google and Amazon united to remove Parler from the internet forty-eight hours after leading Democrats demanded that action, right as Parler became the most-downloaded app in the country

Greenwald [Jan 12]> The day after a united Apple and Google acted against Parler, Amazon delivered the fatal blow. The company founded and run by the world’s richest man, Jeff Bezos, used virtually identical language as Apple to inform Parler that its web hosting service (AWS) was terminating Parler’s ability to have AWS host its site: “Because Parler cannot comply with our terms of service and poses a very real risk to public safety, we plan to suspend Parler’s account effective Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST.” Because Amazon is such a dominant force in web hosting, Parler has thus far not found a hosting service for its platform, which is why it has disappeared not only from app stores and phones but also from the internet.

This is kind of along the right lines but gets the details wrong. Greenwald is intelligent, insightful, has good sources and is not afraid to annoy people, so it is tiresome that he has a bad habit of fudging details to make a shiny claim that is not quite right. With another journalist, I'd think what happened is the journalist was under pressure, so wrote up a story whose details they didn't quite follow, but with Greenwald, I am not sure what is going on. My least unlikely guess so far is that he rewards his sources with sympathetic coverage, which in this case he gave to Parler executives.

Some thoughts:

The big truth: The triple whammy from three of the four biggest tech firms, all of which have sophisticated lobbying operations, did indeed effectively cripple Parler.

The biggest error: None of the three companies were in competition with Parler. In my opinion, the businesses of both Google and Apple would benefit from a strong rival to Facebook and Twitter; Amazon has a close relationship with Twitter, so this is a little less clear, but on the face of it AWS should normally benefit from hosting a client. This was pointed out by many commentators on the Jan 12th post, but he repeats it today.

Continued mythmongering: Greenwald's Jan 12th story essentially misses the backstory on Parler's bad relationship with Amazon, who had for several weeks essentially refused to answer demands that they comply with their TOS. There is competition in the hosting business (Greenwald's characterisation of Amazon's dominance on jan 12th was itself an error), but I don't think any major hosting provider - e.g., neither Digital Ocean nor Hetzner have major lobbying operations - would have kept the left the servers up under the circumstances. I commented on this at the time on the HN thread of Greenwald's story - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25759115 - to my knowledge Greenwald has not since given a more faithful account of Amazon's role.

[Today]: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/democrats-and-media-do-not-... (repeating your link)

[Jan 12]: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/how-silicon-valley-in-a-sho... Jan 12, 2021

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#685
post #77

I think a lot of people are choosing to ignore that a lot of companies have done things in the past that were not illegal at the time of action. However, those actions were later decided to be made illegal because the behavior was deemed to be antithetical to our values. For example, Standard Oil did not break any laws in its ruthless consolidation of the nascent oil industry. In fact, it exploited the law to allow i…

"In response, Congress passed the Sherman Antitrust Act in 1890 which subsequently prevented the actions that Standard Oil had used to conslidate the market." This tech company employee (aka the "Facebook Whistleblower") is refusing to share the documents she stole with the FTC. Although she did share them with several attorneys general. It appears she does not support antitrust inquiries. Heavy consolidation of "soc…

> This tech company employee (aka the "Facebook Whistleblower") is refusing to share the documents she stole with the FTC.

Source?

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory yes - in practice no. Legal/illegal is only a binary variable in theory. In practice it's things that are clearly white, clearly black and lots of grey in between. There are many concrete examples regarding accounting rules mentioned in the interview. The question is where does a court draw the line, and as parent rightly points out, sometimes code/case law changes after the fact.

I think the parent is making a point about definitions - that the word fraud can only refer to illegal actions by definition. I think this is an overly literal interpretation of language' though.

Since the term was quoted in Pyramus' comment, this goes from being overly literal to being perversely pedantic.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#687
post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't believe NYT is liberal, you're just refusing to recognize the reality. You may love NYT, you may agree with what they say 100 times out of 100, which is fine, but it doesn't change the fact they are a liberal media outlet and have been since forever. If you ignore that, you're just voluntarily skewing your picture of reality. Maybe you think "liberal" means "bad" (which would be weird as I suspect your o…

Do you have examples of importantly not opinion pieces which you consider liberal? to me their reporting is very flat and caged in a good way.

The NYT was called “misinformation” by the NY Supreme Court after being sued by Project Veritas for defamation in the NYT — at least in the context of that purportedly factual article.

Similarly, their breathless coverage of Sandmann or Smollett suggests a certain ideological bias.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#689
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard oil reduces the cost of oil, delighted customers, and had already a massive decline in market share by the time the antitrust stuff happened. It was driven by people who couldn't compete.

As someone who has studied this fairly extensively, I believe this comment to be factually correct. It also didn't hurt Rockefeller in the slightest. To the contrary, he actually became far wealthier post-breakup, possibly because all former business units became more efficient in the light of open competition. Many of them live on today, such as Texaco, Chevron, and Mobil. https://historyincharts.com/the-legacy-of-t…

I was never aware that the purpose of anti-trust legislation was to hurt people (e.g. Rockefeller) or prevent them from making money. I thought it was to promote competition, which it apparently did.

Re: Facebook Whistleblower Leaks Thousands of Pages of Incriminating Internal Docs

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN's rankings are not personalized, so no filter bubbles. HN is fully moderated, FB is barely moderated. HN nerfs their algos. FB weaponizes theirs. HN applies their rules fairly, evenly. FB does not. FB has ads. HN does not. FB weaponizes PII. HN does not. Etc. Comparing HN to FB is like bicycle vs freight train, firecracker vs nukes, nice bath vs a hurricane.

No, actually, it's not any of these things. It's on HN that dang applies special rules to your comments if he doesn't like you. FB's algorithm is impersonal. Your list of criteria is legally inactionable. Neither you nor anyone else can write down what precisely it is that FB should be prohibited from doing. All I see is a bunch of unproductive rhetoric about how this is bad or that is bad. Blah blah, filter bubbles,…

Regulating Facebook, making it safe for human consumption, is trivial.

No targeted advertising.

No algorithmic news feed.

Voila. Fixed.

RSS feed readers can do it. So can Facebook.

> dang applies special rules to your comments if he doesn't like you.

What's FB's equivalent to HN's guidelines?

When has @dang violated his own guidelines?

Are you suggesting that automated curation, moderating is without bias?

> FB's algorithm is impersonal.

FB's algorithms are hyper personal. Machine mediated curation is sociopathic, utterly lacking empathy, not impersonal.

Repeating myself: every FB user gets their own news feed, every HN user sees the same thing.

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