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Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

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251–260 of 638 posts

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#251
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do all the time, since, as I mentioned, it's still the basis of the French legal system. For something straight out of the 18th century, the very first sentence of the current French constitution begins: Le peuple français proclame solennellement son attachement aux Droits de l’Homme et aux principes de la souveraineté nationale tels qu’ils ont été définis par la Déclaration de 1789 [...] It's just a strange a…

And yet I have yet to hear, even a French politician, say things like "as Napoleon wanted for the French people...". That's my point. Plus, the Code Napoleon dates to 1804, not the original revolution.

The president of France giving a speech just a couple of days ago in front of an 18th century French revolutionary slogan:

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b24157621977bd4ff3fd790731e6c...

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#252
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world. Is it? "Economically middle in the road" is somewhat around classic Social Democrat politics, a staple of European politics. The problem with the classic European Social Democrat parties is that they shot themselves in their feet by a combination of neol…

"Economically middle in the road" is somewhat around classic Social Democrat politics Even more conservative parties in Europe are moving that way. Just look at the Tories in the UK for example, proposing massive government spending plans paid for by raising taxes.

That’s surprising only if you consider the Tories as being economically liberal. They are conservative in the sense that they look after the interests of the old aristocracy and a coalition of the rich. Their policies are intended to benefit a specific subset of the population. Their taxes (as well as things like the universal credit cuts) are perfectly aligned with that ideology.

They don’t have a problem with the concept of taxation, just taxation of the powerful.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#253
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet I have yet to hear, even a French politician, say things like "as Napoleon wanted for the French people...". That's my point. Plus, the Code Napoleon dates to 1804, not the original revolution.

The president of France giving a speech just a couple of days ago in front of an 18th century French revolutionary slogan: https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b24157621977bd4ff3fd790731e6c...

And their slogan is still on coins (Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite). But how exactly does Napoleon figure into that again? In the way the Founding Fathers still influence modern US politics?

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#254
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect a huge part of Macron's success was his opponent. France elections have a top-2 runoff, and I wouldn't be surprised if many electors were like "I don't like Macron but I really don't want Le Pen to win". The whole "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world.

In order to qualify for the run-off, Macron had to end up in the top 2 first. Which he did. And that En Marche got the parliament as well was a bit of a surprise. Curious to see how things play out next year so.

If Le Pen or Zemmour get through to the second round then I imagine Macron will win, as voters unite to avoid them winning, much as happened in the previous elections.

Although I guess Le Pen and Zemmour might split each others vote, preventing them from reaching the second round.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the 5th French Republic is going well since the 50s, isn't it? As is the post-war BRD in Germany. Both used to have an Emperor at some point, Italy went from Kingdom to Facist regime to democracy. So yes, if the situation changes you can change your government form. Basing 21st Century politics on something written in the 18th century is... weird. Especially as it is more the interpretation of what the authors…

No, it isn’t weird, it’s simply rejecting the frankly naive notion that you should change everything all the time according to the whims of the populace. History and human nature didn’t begin in 1950. Again, the US has never had anything remotely as horrible as the French Revolution or Nazi Germany. That’s likely a consequence of a constitutional government with limited powers. The United Kingdom is in a very similar…

> Again, the US has never had anything remotely as horrible as the French Revolution or Nazi Germany. That’s likely a consequence of a constitutional government with limited powers.

Uhhh... slavery? American Indian genocide? The Civil War? The US has certainly had things at least "remotely as horrible" as the French Revolution or Nazi Germany, although the holocaust is a bit of stretch.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to qualify for the run-off, Macron had to end up in the top 2 first. Which he did. And that En Marche got the parliament as well was a bit of a surprise. Curious to see how things play out next year so.

If Le Pen or Zemmour get through to the second round then I imagine Macron will win, as voters unite to avoid them winning, much as happened in the previous elections. Although I guess Le Pen and Zemmour might split each others vote, preventing them from reaching the second round.

The far right failing to reach the second would really be great! Even if I cannot vote, but it would send a signal so.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#257

Am I misinformed? As non American, I was under the impression that there could only be two parties, and everyone else had to be independent?

There are plenty of American political parties, including one literally called the "American Independent Party," which was founded in 1967 in order to nominate George Wallace to run for president on a segregationist platform after the two big parties were no longer willing to die on that hill.

Usually, if you hear about a politician being an "independent," it means they're either a legislator not siding with either of the two major caucuses or a candidate running without the backing of any party, which does happen sometimes when a candidate is wealthy enough to fund themselves. The last time anyone managed get very far doing that nationally was Ross Perot in 1992, but when he ran again in 1996, he formed his own political party instead.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#258
post #196
post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

I suspect a huge part of Macron's success was his opponent. France elections have a top-2 runoff, and I wouldn't be surprised if many electors were like "I don't like Macron but I really don't want Le Pen to win". The whole "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN is extremely unpopular in the real world.

It's always true that the election system itself plays a big role in how/what candidates get elected. It's also true that the US electoral structure was a huge factor in Biden or Trump's election. Change the structure of the primary or main election, get different results.

That notwithstanding, it's also true that elements of Trump or Bidens' success might translate.

In any case, the "The whole "socially progressive, economically middle of the road" political coalition that would win every election on HN." is arguably the most successful coalition in western (and many non western) democracies for decades.

Depending on vantage, political classifications like "progressive" and "middle of the road" are relative, and we don't usually agree on the bounds. But if

If you compare changes though, these orientations have been politically powerful for decades. ...

Normative beliefs around gay rights, minority rights, secularism, women's rights and such have been marching forward, call it progressing. Circa 2005, gay marriage was fringe and ilegal almost everywhere. Obama, Clinton & other prominent US democrats occasionally even had to pretend to be against gay marriage, for elections. Within Meanwhile, the economic middle-ground is approximately in exactly the same place as it was in the 90s. This might be breaking down ATM, but very generally, the conservative position from the 80s became the middle ground. Barriers to trade, corporate shields, tax structures and such haven't changed much since that shift.

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#259
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet I have yet to hear, even a French politician, say things like "as Napoleon wanted for the French people...". That's my point. Plus, the Code Napoleon dates to 1804, not the original revolution.

The president of France giving a speech just a couple of days ago in front of an 18th century French revolutionary slogan: https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b24157621977bd4ff3fd790731e6c...

The slogan, not the people. Big difference.

An idea, not founding saints :-)

Re: Andrew Yang Founds the Forward Party

#260
post #158

The top line, "Not Left. Not Right. Forward." kind of reminds me of Macron's "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm, taking over the presidency AND the parliament only one year after its foundation, with very few previously known political figures in its ranks. The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics, and offered an alternative to fed-up voters who didn't dare turn to the…

> "En Marche" ("Let's Go") that took over France in a storm (...) with very few previously known political figures in its ranks

"En marche" is not "Let's go" ("allons-y") but "March on", a military reference. They had key figures in the previous government, for example Macron who was ministry of economy and supervised the destruction of working law protections (2016 reforms) for the "socialist" (huge quotation marks) government.

His first prime Manuel Valls minister was also part of the previous government, where he supervised the crushing of popular uprising as ministry of interior. They both represent the national-capitalist turn/wing of the "socialist" party that emerged in the 80/90's. They both have countless blood on their hands, and have betrayed all their campaign promises. For example, Macron campaigned against Le Pen's racism, then passed racist laws doubling retention times (90 days) for undocumented people, pressured against rescuing the Aquarius...

It's also important to note that if they appear to come out of nowhere, they are not emerging challengers. They have been chosen by the oligarchy (media and land/industry owner establishment) to represent their interests, and have been heavily promoted across private/public media as an "alternative" to the politics we knew. As you could guess, this "alternative" was always more of the same: less public services, more cops/prisons, less taxes for the rich, more corruption in the heart of government.

> The whole thing looked like doing management rather than politics

That's politics, too. Just very reactionary, anti-humane politics that destroy people's lives and autonomy in the name of micro-managed stats. You may be interested to know that historically, having a strong government managing society without "politics" (huge quotation marks, everything is political) is Mussolini's historic definition of fascism:

> "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."

PS: "Neither left nor right" is also a popular fascist meme.("third position"). In France, it's still represented by famous holocaust-denier Alain Soral ("working Reft, traditional values Right") or Troisième Voie (the neofascist militias who were dissolved after murdering Clément Méric). Hitler was also famously "neither left nor right", and actively campaigned against existing parties, claiming the plurality was a form of chaos that ruined efficiency. He historically managed to convince some workers that he was going to be their defender against the bosses, while at the same time taking considerable funds/support from the German industry owners who he convinced he would be their defender against "communism".

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