Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated • Hacker News Board

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#271

Post by Karrot_Kream » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

klibertp wrote: post #250

chroem- wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Places like the DPRK, Cuba, and Venezuela are especially relevant when discussing cryptocurrency because it's a technology that allows people in those locations to escape economic totalitarianism. What confuses me is that people in democratic countries are calling a tool of democracy "anti-democratic". It's completely illogical.

It's possible that the same tool can be used either for, or against, democracy, depending on the environment. That's actually what most tools are like. Using cryptocurrency in an authoritarian state can help democratize the state, while using it in an already democratic state has a potential to do more harm than good. It's similar to violence: using it to kill off the ancien regime can (potentially) pave road towards…

I agree with this and it's a good line of reasoning to explore but unfortunately top-level discussions on this topic never contain this much nuance.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#272

Post by iszomer » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

dqx wrote: post #64

iszomer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't be a surprise as we've elected an actor before.

Reagan was a former governor whose net worth paled in comparison to Trump's. He was not an oligarch.

> ..The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

^ Was responding to this. He really _was_ an actor prior to becoming governor of California. Actor, media mogul, "game show host", why should it be any different? Even Michael Bloomberg served in politics as mayor of NYC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_filmography

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#273

Post by geysersam » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

tornato7 wrote: post #60

seibelj wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin transactions are far more traceable and easy to scan than it is to track payments in the offshore world, which involves many jurisdictions, subpoenas, judges, delays, getting stonewalled, etc. Night and day difference in ability to track.

Indeed, once you figure out someone's wallet address it becomes trivial to trace their transactions back to the beginning of Bitcoin.

If they use the same address forever yes.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#274

Post by imtringued » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #253

Fundamentally, cryptocurrency is an end-run around the ridiculous and absurd SWIFT sanctions, KYC, and AML regulations that weigh down banks around the world. There's nothing innovative about it beyond this. We've known how to do two-phase transactions for decades, now. We've had Merkle Trees for about the same period of time. The only innovation cryptocurrency offers is that it's decentralized, to avoid the garbage…

I personally only see value in the payments aspect. People telling me how I can 10x my money with a payments service are sketchy.

The debt/credit system makes a whole lot of sense and I don't really see any innovation there in the cryptospace. Someone borrows $500k to start a business. The money flows into the hands of people who worked to make the business possible and they then get to redeem their dollars at the business in return. The debt gives the business a pretty good reason to accept USD voluntarily and the money supply is growing with the size of the economy.

The idea that the entrepreneur just buys $500k of Bitcoin and ends up owning $5 million without doing anything doesn't really appeal to me.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#275

Post by tylersmith » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

PpEY4fu85hkQpn wrote: post #201

xrd wrote: post #2

I still think war and oil are dirtier and don't see a way to wean ourselves off that consumption and impact. I do see that cryptocurrencies are moving toward energy reduction through things like proof of stake and L2s. https://susanfsu.medium.com/think-btc-is-a-dirty-business-co...

PoS has been right around the corner for about 8 years. It's bait.

PoS is here. I use PoS every day and rarely have usecases for any PoW chains anymore.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#276

Post by imtringued » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

bitxbitxbitcoin wrote: post #37

xrd wrote: post #2

I still think war and oil are dirtier and don't see a way to wean ourselves off that consumption and impact. I do see that cryptocurrencies are moving toward energy reduction through things like proof of stake and L2s. https://susanfsu.medium.com/think-btc-is-a-dirty-business-co...

Wars and oil are way dirtier, but most people aren’t cognizant that those things are pet and parcel to their preferred centralized currency.

They are also pet and parcel to everything in the country including the mining infrastructure that mines Bitcoin.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#277

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

iskander wrote: post #266

joe_the_user wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have still been no consequences for large banks issuing known bad mortgages in the early 2000s and then reselling those mortgages in bundles with artificially inflated default rate claims. I'm not sure how a cryptocurrency based financial system, designed so that there can be never be criminal justice consequences for any financial action, is supposed to be an answer to particular abuses without consequences in…

"designed so that there can be never be criminal justice consequences for any financial action" I don't see why that's true at all, cryptocurrencies are public ledgers with mostly KYC'd on/off ramps. You can pursue criminals, but it's harder to create collusion-based regulatory monopolies. Users of financial products have more choices through self custody and the diversity of decentralized financial products. The mer…

I don't see why that's true at all, cryptocurrencies are public ledgers with mostly KYC'd on/off ramps.

Explain how bitcoin has become the go-to tool for ransomware gangs.

Moreover, the intent of cryptocurrency creators and substantial number of cryptocurrency users is to be immune to regulation. You can read the number of posters here who view bitcoin as answer to the power of the Fed. Maybe crypto can be so controlled by regulators that it won't anything, in which case there's no idealistic argument for its existence. Or maybe crypto could make it's users immune to consequences, in which case there are good arguments to follow China's lead and make the system point-blank illegal.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#278

Post by cwkoss » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

lottin wrote: post #236

mavhc wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only reason people jump on cryptocurrencies is their pyramid scheme type nature, get in first or lose out. They're not currencies, they're speculation. People want to spend currencies, why would you ever spend bitcoin when it's designed to always increase in value? Governments are their citizens, they're just people we picked. If you hate the people that are running, there's a built in solution, get someone better to…

The idea that a product (e.g. bitcoin) can be designed in such a way as to always increase in price has to be dismissed as crackpottery.

Everything that has a fixed quantity will always increase in price (assuming the Fed continues inflating the currency 1-5% /yr)

Land, collectibles, natural resources, Bitcoin: as long as they are priced in USD and USD is constantly devalued year after year - prices will rise.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#279

Post by tylersmith » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

danlugo92 wrote: post #178

maxwell wrote: post #24

Looks like this is mostly about PoW. Here's a recent report on the environmental impact of PoS: http://blockchain.cs.ucl.ac.uk/blockchain-energy-consumption...

PoS does not work https://endthefud.org/PoW

Saying it doesn't change the fact that PoS systems are protecting nearly $200B right now, and growing faster than PoW systems.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#280

Post by fleddr » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #11

NoGravitas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HERE IS THE ARTICLE YOU CAN SEND TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY SAY “BUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES WITH CRYPTOART WILL BE SOLVED SOON, RIGHT?” https://everestpipkin.medium.com/but-the-environmental-issue... The promise of "proof of stake eventually" is just greenwashing.

The behavior of these cryptocurrency folk is indicative that they don't care about the environment at all. If they did, there would be something like a carbon tax set up to pay for the externalities that are currently being caused until these underlying environmental issues are solved by some future technology. Since no one has any interest in cutting into their profits for that right now, motives are clearly not ali…

Nobody cares about the environment at all. There's zero outrage on energy wasting consumer behavior, say ACs, giant TVs, high-end gaming PCs, dryers, and leaving chargers plugged in. Likewise, there's barely any outrage on eating meat or air travel.

Whilst I would agree that some types of crypto don't help in this regard as they add to the problem, it's truly very hypocritical to believe to be morally superior or to care about the environment, whilst hardly anybody does, crypto or not.