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Open Source Tax Software

ctskennerton.github.io

241–250 of 265 posts

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of marginal utility says that taking different amounts from people with different levels of income/wealth is treating them the same. To a person who earns $10k/yr, $1k is huge (whether it is extra income or owed tax). To a person who earns $1M/yr, $1k is basically pocket change. The utility of that marginal $1k varies for them both. Ergo, to treat them equally, we tax them differently.

> The concept of marginal utility says that taking different amounts from people with different levels of income/wealth is treating them the same. Marginal utility says that—most of the time–the utility of one more of an item to the owner is less than or equal to the utility of each item they already possess. (The exception would be where you need multiple items to do anything useful, but this is generally treated as…

> It makes zero sense to say that some set amount of money is worth objectively more or less ...

I think this is nonsense. We can't put a precise worth on it for different people, sure. But I think it's indisputable that there's a curve, we know it's rough shape, and that it's a reflection of marginal utility. The lack of labels or positions on the axes doesn't make that graph useless.

> The concept of marginal utility says nothing about the relative utility of the same amount of money to different people.

Sorry, but this is just completely wrong. Here's the most relevant paragraph from: https://commons.lib.niu.edu/bitstream/handle/10843/22650/12-...

>The linchpin of The Uneasy Case is its rejection of the principle that income has diminishing marginal utility.' Diminishing marginal utility of income (DMUI) means that the greater a taxpayer's income, the less an additional dollar of income is worth to him. If DMUI holds, the government exacts a lesser sacrifice from a higher-income taxpayer, with each dollar taxed, than from a lower-income taxpayer. Moreover, any redistribution of income from a higher-income tax- payer to a lower-income taxpayer tends to increase aggregate welfare: The lower-income taxpayer derives greater utility from each dollar gained than 4 the higher-income taxpayer derives from each dollar surrendered.

Now, to be fair, there are arguments against the DMUI case for progressive taxation. For example, here's Donald Boudreaux writing for the American Institute of Economic Research:

https://www.aier.org/article/rich-man-poor-man-comparing-the...

The fact that it's a terrible argument doesn't diminish the fact that it clearly recognizes that there is a case to be made for progressive taxation based on DMUI.

Here's another one, equally bad:

https://www.econlib.org/archives/2011/04/the_uneasy_case.htm...

The key point here seems to be that even though DMUI is true, we don't know the actual numbers, and thus we should not act on it.

As for your remarks about $1M in 1yr vs $100k for 10yrs ... well, sure the tax code is necessarily imperfect. Optimize it for people with one income patterns and you've made it worse for people with a different income pattern. Such is life ... perfection is not an option here.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that tax filing companies lobby to prevent improvements to the tax filing system in the US, but this is also aided by political parties that argue against things like taxation in the first place, which is why there is no bipartisan support to address this issue. Keeping taxes hard to pay is an important carrot in keeping the public mad about having to pay them in the first place. It's governance through dar…

> Keeping taxes hard to pay is an important carrot in keeping the public mad about having to pay them in the first place. It's governance through dark patterns. I am pretty sure the reason most people are mad about having to pay taxes is the thousands/tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of dollars of their income that is taken from them. On the high level, I always felt fortunate that I was in position to have to…

> income that is taken from them.

Taxation exists in every functional modern democracy and there are no viable alternatives to it. States and municipalities that reduce their revenues through tax cuts wind up relying on things like speeding citations and civil forfeiture to bridge the gap. Wouldn't you rather suck it up and pay once per year than potentially having assets seized by a random cop that you then have to go through the legal system in order to get back? You're gonna pay either way. Even in anti-tax states like Texas, people get hit with massive property tax bills because it's one of the only ways that the government generates revenue.

The real problem is that the vast majority of people don't really care once the money leaves their hands. You don't like the mansion tax, which makes sense, but have you taken the time to look at your state or city budget to see where all of this money is disappearing to? Because that's where the more of the focus needs to be. Just glancing at the executive summary of the latest NY budget(0), it looks like $86B of the $212B total goes towards Medicaid alone.

So do we just leave the poor to not have healthcare? Why does healthcare cost so much and how come despite all of these tech entrants into the healthcare space, the cost never seems to go down? I really hope for the sake of your own argument that you don't work in healthcare, because what that industry is doing to communities across the nation in terms of cost is nothing short of outrageous.

[0] https://www.osc.state.ny.us/reports/budget/review-enacted-bu...

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#243
post #88
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could evolve to requiring laws to be implemented as FOSS before they go live. I suspect the right tests could reveal all kinds of bugs, weird edge cases and exploits. Sadly law makers don't know how to code. If they did they would see what bloated monstrosity of complexity a few simple sounding sentences with some simple sounding exceptions produce. Perhaps a large bill and months of delay could provide enough of…

AFAIU, the French Tax Code is effectively defined in terms of an algorithm. There was a recent HN thread ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25208853 ) on a new open-source compiler for the tax code ( https://arxiv.org/abs/2011.07966 ). The paper for the compiler references some interesting literature on the computability of legal codes. For example, > [U.S.] tax law drafting style follows default logic, a non-mon…

Fascinating. I thought Estonia was the only one who kept an eye on difficulty of implementation.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keeping taxes hard to pay is an important carrot in keeping the public mad about having to pay them in the first place. It's governance through dark patterns. I am pretty sure the reason most people are mad about having to pay taxes is the thousands/tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of dollars of their income that is taken from them. On the high level, I always felt fortunate that I was in position to have to…

> I am pretty sure the reason most people are mad about having to pay taxes is the thousands/tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of dollars of their income that is taken from them. Perhaps this depends. In the USA, perhaps. In Iceland, not so much ( https://twitter.com/iamharaldur/status/1355490017288867841 ). In the USA you have to pay your taxes and then you have to pay for your public insurances, where in most…

I bet if high taxes for high level of public service can work anywhere, Iceland is it. The population is small (350,000 people) and highly homogeneous. One Icelander is similar to another so problems are more common.

US is vastly larger. New York City alone has 3X as many public school students as Iceland has people. We are vastly diverse ethnically, culturally and geographically. It is much harder to find "problems and solutions everyone agrees to" in the US than in Iceland.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you should call it the Trump tax cut since mine went up substantially for the reasons you mention.

If it went up for the reasons mentioned, it means that your (previousl) itemized deductions put you in a rather small percentage of Americans. Also an unfortunate group: rich enough to have deductions at this scale, but not rich enough to have wriggled out of a large chunk of tax obligations.

Or it could have been increased taxes due to the cap on SALT exemptions.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am pretty sure the reason most people are mad about having to pay taxes is the thousands/tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of dollars of their income that is taken from them. Perhaps this depends. In the USA, perhaps. In Iceland, not so much ( https://twitter.com/iamharaldur/status/1355490017288867841 ). In the USA you have to pay your taxes and then you have to pay for your public insurances, where in most…

I bet if high taxes for high level of public service can work anywhere, Iceland is it. The population is small (350,000 people) and highly homogeneous. One Icelander is similar to another so problems are more common. US is vastly larger. New York City alone has 3X as many public school students as Iceland has people. We are vastly diverse ethnically, culturally and geographically. It is much harder to find "problems…

That is hardly it... The US population largely agrees that the military budged is way too bloated, that infrastructure spending is way to low, and there is a general lack of a single payer health care system and tuition free public schools.

I’m sure you’ll find way more happiness towards paying taxes in the UK and China then in the USA despite being as diverse and even larger then the USA.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The concept of marginal utility says that taking different amounts from people with different levels of income/wealth is treating them the same. Marginal utility says that—most of the time–the utility of one more of an item to the owner is less than or equal to the utility of each item they already possess. (The exception would be where you need multiple items to do anything useful, but this is generally treated as…

> It makes zero sense to say that some set amount of money is worth objectively more or less ... I think this is nonsense. We can't put a precise worth on it for different people, sure. But I think it's indisputable that there's a curve, we know it's rough shape, and that it's a reflection of marginal utility. The lack of labels or positions on the axes doesn't make that graph useless. > The concept of marginal utili…

> We can't put a precise worth on it for different people, sure. But I think it's indisputable that there's a curve, we know it's rough shape, and that it's a reflection of marginal utility.

There is indeed a curve, and we do know its rough shape (it's nonincreasing). But that curve is for one individual. Utility is not an objective measure. Every individual has their own "unit" of utility and there is no conversion factor which would allow utility to be summed or compared across multiple individuals.

This is heresy to utilitarians, to be sure. How are you supposed to implement policies which ensure the greatest benefit for the greatest number if you can't calculate a collective utility score? That doesn't bother me, though, since I'm not a utilitarian. So far as I'm concerned the utilitarians are just implementing policies based on their own preferences and ignoring what anyone else actually wants.

> Diminishing marginal utility of income (DMUI) means that the greater a taxpayer's income, the less an additional dollar of income is worth to him.

This is a fairly standard description of the concept of marginal utility, aside from the fact that it's confusing income and wealth. (The greater one's wealth the less each additional dollar is worth. Income is irrelevant except as a poor proxy for wealth.)

Note that it only talks about one person. As I acquire more wealth I'm less and less willing to put in the same effort / pay the same cost to acquire each additional dollar. No issues there, this is not particularly controversial.

> If DMUI holds, the government exacts a lesser sacrifice from a higher-income taxpayer, with each dollar taxed, than from a lower-income taxpayer.

And here they make an extraordinary leap from talking about one individual's marginal utility to comparing the "sacrifice" (lost utility) of multiple individuals. They're making the assumption that all individuals have exactly the same utility scale, which is manifestly false. Everyone has their own utility scale, which varies over time and is in general unknowable, even to them, except as it is partially revealed through their actions. It can readily be observed, however, that a dollar of additional income does not have the same utility to two different people with the same wealth: For any given level of wealth, some pursue higher-paying work while others don't consider it worth the effort. Taking some amount of money from the first group represents a larger sacrifice than taking the same amount from the second group, even though their wealth is the same. Since you can't even say that equal wealth results in equal marginal utility, how can you claim that lower or higher wealth (much less income) necessarily implies higher or lower marginal utility? There is absolutely no reason why one person with $1M cannot get the same marginal utility out of an additional dollar—by whatever objective measure you care to name—as someone else with a net worth of $10k.

> … well, sure the tax code is necessarily imperfect.

I'm not asking for perfection. I'm just asking that the law, which is supposed to be just, not discriminate against people based on irrelevant factors such as annual income. The fact that a progressive tax system based on annual income imposes different levels of taxation on two people with the same earnings merely because one received their pay in a lump sum while the other received it in installments is a strong hint that the system is based on unsound principles.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FreeFillableForms is great and has saved me a ton of time, but it does not do the calculations automatically for every field. You still have to manually lookup certain things from tables. It's freakin' frustrating, because there's no reason why it couldn't automate those as well.

Even more frustrating because it doesn't tell you that you haven't done the calculation or worse, you haven't transferred a field from one form to another. I failed to copy my self-employment tax back to my 1040 for 2020, despite having calculated it correctly. No warnings, the form filing went smoothly, and 4 months later I got a notice from the IRS. It's insanity.

I hear you. I keep hoping they will add more calculations in future versions, and they do, little by little.

My suspicion is that it is deliberately deprecated due to pressure from for-profit tax prep companies.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#249
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes an army to build and maintain Perfect for open source - if decomposable, so each issue can be dealt with in isolation (or many can). e.g. using a "plug-in" architecture of some kind. And somehow recruit non-dev folk - if you go to the trouble to understand some specific tax point, you often would like to share it, and also record it in some "easy to use" form, for next time (and a starting point for amendm…

>Perfect for open source Not really. The software as a whole needs to be verified across a wide range of everchanging rules, some of which are going to be a judgement call even among experienced accountants. Why would people be interested in working on this project? It certainly doesn't break any new ground. It's just a long and ongoing grind to implement tax code rules. If for some reason, I have a lifelong ambition…

You're right about verification, there'd be a lag for changes until they become settled. Some projects do have moving targets - like youtube-dl - but testing is simple, and it's only one thing. (BTW even court tax rulings can have dissenting judges, so some points are real uncertain)

Many popular open source projects began as an open source version of something. e.g. linux. The structure of the software, to facilitate contribution, could break new ground.

I think the most significant and difficult-to-solve barrier is making contributing accessible to non-devs.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it went up for the reasons mentioned, it means that your (previousl) itemized deductions put you in a rather small percentage of Americans. Also an unfortunate group: rich enough to have deductions at this scale, but not rich enough to have wriggled out of a large chunk of tax obligations.

Or it could have been increased taxes due to the cap on SALT exemptions.

The standard deduction went up to $12k. If your SALT exemptions exceed that, you're holding a rather costly mortgage.
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