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Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#61

Post by MildlySerious »

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

I would generally agree, and have brought up my concerns in regards to accountability before. (not in the context of crypto)

And while this is true in theory, the reality as far as I can tell is that we already have a system of no accountability - for a certain privileged sub-group of society. All crypto does is to level the field, and that's a big net win in my book.

Now if panama and paradise papers had lead to anything other than journalists getting killed, trillion dollar corporations didn't keep buying up and stifling competition, insider trading by CEOs and politicians wasn't rampant, politics as a whole was not a money game and celebrities and high ranking officials didn't get off scoff free for crimes that would put lesser fortunate or connected individuals behind bars for years if not decades, maybe, maybe then accountability would be a valid point.

Until then I will celebrate the fact that the odds are a little more evened out now than they were before.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#62

Post by endisneigh »

MildlySerious wrote: post #61
endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

I would generally agree, and have brought up my concerns in regards to accountability before. (not in the context of crypto) And while this is true in theory, the reality as far as I can tell is that we already have a system of no accountability - for a certain privileged sub-group of society. All crypto does is to level the field, and that's a big net win in my book. Now if panama and paradise papers had lead to any…

> And while this is true in theory, the reality as far as I can tell is that we already have a system of no accountability - for a certain privileged sub-group of society. All crypto does is to level the field, and that's a big net win in my book.

This isn't true at all.

What you describe isn't really relevant to cryptocurrency. You might as well advocate for the abolition of taxation to "even the playing field." The resulting societal disaster be darned.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#63

Post by mathgenius »

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

> whose power cannot be really removed

Yes. It may not be too worrisome right now, but what if the cryptocurrency phenomena became several orders of magnitude bigger? Couple that with climate wars, failed states, and malignant corporations. I can imagine some very grim outcomes indeed.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#64

Post by dqx »

iszomer wrote: post #20
dqx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

Shouldn't be a surprise as we've elected an actor before.

Reagan was a former governor whose net worth paled in comparison to Trump's. He was not an oligarch.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#65

Post by tornato7 »

NoGravitas wrote: post #48
Freestyler_3 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All crypto bad because PW bad. And I do not see how PS is greenwashing, since it is fundamentally changing the business. This is like going from burning brown coal to solar power, and then you would say solar power is just greenwashing. I do not mind criticism, so give some.

How long has Etherium been "planning" to move to PoS? How widely used are other PoS systems? Even beyond that, a PoS system is still, like all cryptocurrencies, functionally, a pyramid scheme.

Ethereum has been planning to move to PoS since the beginning. PoS is already working and devs are making incredible progress toward The Merge.

PoS chains such as Solana and more efficient L2s are already starting to see wide adoption.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#66

Post by tornato7 »

seibelj wrote: post #30
NoGravitas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HERE IS THE ARTICLE YOU CAN SEND TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY SAY “BUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES WITH CRYPTOART WILL BE SOLVED SOON, RIGHT?” https://everestpipkin.medium.com/but-the-environmental-issue... The promise of "proof of stake eventually" is just greenwashing.

This is a terrible article written by someone who doesn't know anything. Plenty of proof of stake coins are currently active, such as Binance Chain, Ripple, Avalanche, Cosmos, Polkadot, and on and on. Ethereum will get there but they are being very careful.

To be fair it was written in March, a lot of progress has been made since then

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#67

Post by joe_the_user »

tshaddox wrote: post #51
endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

You have an interesting way of putting it. I pretty agree with your criticism although I would frame it as "having all the same problems that our large wealthy democratic national governments have" rather than "antithetical to democracy." I suppose the only difference is our opinions of democracy as it's practiced.

Uh, cryptocurrencies can't have "the same problems that our large wealthy democratic national governments" - cryptocurrencies aren't institutions, they don't hold elections, have bureaucracies or have head administrators.

I think you're trying to say that a cryptocurrency fuel regime would have the same problem as current democracies. But just cryptocurrencies added to what exists today and as the gp points out, will act to increase all the problematic qualities of the present situation.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#68

Post by adventured »

ur-whale wrote: post #54
NoGravitas wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about you, buddy, but most people are forced to consume practically all of their income to keep their family fed and to keep a roof over their heads. Having savings that could be eroded by inflation is not really a relatable problem to have, in general.

> most people are forced to consume practically all of their income to keep their family fed and to keep a roof over their heads I'll take a guess that you be living in USistan.

The majority of people in Europe have no consequential savings to speak of. That's also true of Asia, Latin America and Africa.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#69

Post by dogman144 »

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

The creation of a new gilded class is definitely a valid side effect in the event cryptocurrencies really do extend into a mainstream form of transaction/economic activity. what's doubly interesting is that group, especially as the early adopters are the ones with massive holdings, tend to have fairly intensely libertarian views. a potent combo of "i put my money where my mouth is" and "i was right" and "none of you believed me" is sure to be present in some ultra-wealth people.

the primitives i'd push back on is this though, are these not the anthesis to democracy as well as you've defined it?

- inflation hits the poorest classes the hardest re: devaluing their largely all-cash savings, and they have no accountability measures to change that. who will they call, the fed? their senators who approved the fed chair?

- how do consensus algorithms and the open source nature of cryptocurrencies factor into your judgement? provide provide a visible way for anyone to audit and approve of (via participation in) a currency system of their choice. that's a strong feedback loop.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#70

Post by [deleted] »

endisneigh wrote: post #29
haswell wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that he is not does not invalidate the parent comment and your question sidesteps the fact that he left lasting damage that is still playing out on the political stage today.

It literally does. He was democratically removed. The fact he left lasting damage is besides the point, and no system of government can prevent bad actors, only minimize the damage.

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