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Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

thetimes.co.uk

141–150 of 157 posts

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#141
post #120
post #93

So one professor of medicine at Oxford says that long Covid is idiopathic. As Bell is an academic professor and not a clinician in the field handling patients, or a virologist tasked with studying this particular situation, his opinions are educated but not necessarily informed enough to be authoritative. And, of course, no amount of theorizing negates the fact that a great number of people with Covid seem to be suff…

It shouldn't be on the HN front page at all. He's literally presenting zero evidence. This is just some professor's personal opinion.

I agree.

The real problem isn't that one guy has an opinion.

The real problem is that there's an article about it, and this article is somehow getting massive promotion and engagement as if it's real valid science.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#142
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"only 5%" is one in twenty. Right now the UK is getting something like 30,000 new cases a day. This adds up to a lot, last time I checked the UK was only behind India on total cases. For whatever reason the people running the UKs actions are doing the opposite of protecting people.

You know, I wondered for a long time about why "mad cow disease" didn't slowly manifest in a much larger percentage of the British population. But I think it did... they're just calling it Alzheimer's.

mad cow disease has a VERY distinct marker. (it's hard to get to; but it happens in a post-mortem examination of the brain tissue). If most Alzheimer's was mad cow, I guarantee you; we'd know it. (also, symptoms are different). (also, there's really two distinct markers: the physical voids that are formed in brain tissue, which is macroscopic; you can see it with the naked eye, and the very characteristic misfolded proteins, which requires a very powerful microscope to detect).

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#143
Here comes the gaslighting.

This is probably the #1 reason why I was so careful about avoiding the virus back when there was a lot of voices yelling "just catch the virus, you won't die". I knew the people who didn't die but just got lingering afflictions would be treated like gulf war syndrome vets.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#144

Not had covid, but about 2 years ago had a Parvovirus-B19 infection which triggered a reactive arthritis, which means 2 years later I'm still having steroid injections and my joints are more or less in pain. The medical summary is basically "sucks to be you I guess" but it's a semi-common side effect of a virus infection. So yeah, all I want to say is that virus infections are not a joke, even if you got through one…

I had a very bad flu in 2017 or so and could not smell nor taste for at least 4 months after I had it.

Yeah I had about 12-18 months of fatigue and stuff like chills (was blasting my heat the next winter) after a bad influenza in early 2018. Went to the Dr thinking I had low testosterone issues or something. Went away on its own, very similar to some of the minor post-viral syndrome people are reporting with covid. I think a lot of people who haven't caught proper influenza as an adult have a broken measuring stick when it comes to what respiratory viruses can do to you.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#145
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coronavirus's risk to children is low. It's not true that there are no mitigations for Covid: children in the UK are being vaccinated against Covid, as often happens against winter flu. Measures to protect adults against coronavirus have not come for free for children. Mental health referrals amongst children have doubled since before the pandemic [1]. In more unintended consequences, smoking amongst young people has…

No masks in schools - no distancing. They are not even doing the basics.

Lmao have you ever been in a school? How would that even be geometrically possible?

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#146
post #14

The Times and Telepgraph have been minimising Covid since day one, even providing a platform for groups such as "us for them". Right now there are no mitigations for Covid in UK schools. One of the things safer schools campaigners are pointing out is the risk of long Covid (as well as hospitalisations etc). Example of Covid in one area of the UK https://mobile.twitter.com/DmodosCutter/status/1445303921300...

The reality is exactly the opposite. The media has so overblown the risk of COVID that 41% of Democrats now believe that you have a greater than 50% chance of being hospitalized if you contract it: https://twitter.com/PandaTribune/status/1440192783260655618?... >>Great clip of Bill Maher citing a survey in which 41% of Democrats said that if you catch COVID, the chances of going to the hospital are >50%... (the corre…

Fear and drama sells news. This is to be expected.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#147

I think this study, also out of the UK, is the standard reference on long COVID symptoms. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.18.21253633v... I’ll have to look at the survey in more detail but incidence rates would have to be really inconsistent with that study (i.e. probably an order of magnitude lower) to indicate that long COVID is anything other than a massive and serious problem.

You'd have to control for potential confounding factors, like the psychosocial effect of COVID, and the two weeks of total physical isolation every COVID-positve case is subjected to, to even begin to start drawing the conclusion that COVID infections are causing a significant fraction of these self-reported symptoms. Almost every symptom listed could be a result of anxiety, which in turn can be a result of the extre…

Are people who had COVID actually more likely to have had significant periods of physical isolation in 2020 than people who didn't have COVID? I'd expect the opposite, if anything. Amin-Chowdhury et al asked about "loneliness" and found a slightly lower rate in people who had had COVID than in the control group, though the difference wasn't statistically significant.

There is some weak evidence of a higher rate of anxiety among people who've had COVID, including [0] as well as another nonzero but statistically insignificant difference from Amin-Chowdhury et al. But the difference in anxiety prevalence would only be a few percentage points (point estimates of 4.3% and 4.2% respectively), nowhere enough for that to be an underlying causal explanation for long-term symptoms that occur >20% of the time.

In any case, unless you're claiming that social isolation causes a loss of taste and smell that persists for 8+ months, it's pretty clear that some symptoms of COVID persist for a long time in a significant minority of the population. I think you'd really have to jump through hoops to argue that (1) some symptoms caused directly by COVID persist for a long time, (2) other symptoms caused directly by COVID reliably go away after a few weeks, but (3) people who have had COVID re-develop those same symptoms at a higher rate than the general population, months later, for reasons not caused directly by COVID.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8282115/

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#148
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He doesn't present the data (...) If that's what you're going with then you only need to verify the data to either refute or verify his claim. Everything else is just noise at this point.

How do I verify it when I don't have it and he doesn't provide it?

> How do I verify it when I don't have it and he doesn't provide it?

You didn't even bothered to look, did you?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan...

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have to control for potential confounding factors, like the psychosocial effect of COVID, and the two weeks of total physical isolation every COVID-positve case is subjected to, to even begin to start drawing the conclusion that COVID infections are causing a significant fraction of these self-reported symptoms. Almost every symptom listed could be a result of anxiety, which in turn can be a result of the extre…

Are people who had COVID actually more likely to have had significant periods of physical isolation in 2020 than people who didn't have COVID? I'd expect the opposite, if anything. Amin-Chowdhury et al asked about "loneliness" and found a slightly lower rate in people who had had COVID than in the control group, though the difference wasn't statistically significant. There is some weak evidence of a higher rate of an…

>>Are people who had COVID actually more likely to have had significant periods of physical isolation in 2020 than people who didn't have COVID?

Any one who was diagnosed with having had COVID was prescribed to two weeks of total physical isolation, which is pretty unusual experience amongst people who did receive a COVID diagnosis. But yes it's possible that this did not have a significant impact. We wouldn't know without controlling for it.

>>In any case, unless you're claiming that social isolation causes a loss of taste and smell that persists for 8+ months, it's pretty clear that some symptoms of COVID persist for a long time in a significant minority of the population.

The two week physical isolation is one of many psychosocial differences between the two groups, and could affect one of many of the reported symptoms of long-COVID, some of which are much more likely to have a psychosomatic origin than loss of smell/taste, like the most commonly reported "long-COVID" symptom: anxiety.

Like any infection, long-term effects in some cases are very likely. The question is how many effects, and how common they are. Without much more rigorous studies, or some of cross-comparative analysis showing that COVID infections result in a markedly more severe clinical presentation than other infections, I think it's irresponsible to start sounding the alarm about some impending public health crisis from long-COVID. The very hysteria this could rouse could result in far more harm to public health, through more physical/social isolation and greater economic decline, both of which have a documented negative impact on health.

And the harm that a climate of fear can cause is already evident, from the massive increase in childhood overweightedness/obesity during the COVID era:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037a3.htm?s_cid=mm...

"Among a cohort of 432,302 persons aged 2–19, rate of body mass index increase approximately doubled during pandemic compared to prepandemic period. Persons w/ prepandemic overweight or obesity & younger school-aged children experienced largest increases."

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot rely on anecdotes. I know people who claim that many of their relatives suffered severe adverse effects after taking the vaccine. We do not draw scientific conclusions from anecdotes.

you cannot rely on anecdotes. But: pretty much every single anecdote I've heard (online, or meatspace) tells a very consistent story. Maybe it should be studied. But I guess if some professor at a "prestigious university" says it's all psychosomatic, then I guess not.

By all means, study it. But please don't peddle unproven theories as fact, and demand policy that restricts other people's civil and economic liberties, be instituted on the basis of these speculative unproven theories.
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