Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated • Hacker News Board

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#21

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

dqx wrote: post #12

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

Certainly democracy and egalitarianism are struggling in the present world, to say the least.

But I'd say the gp is correct that bitcoin 100% hinders them and 0% helps them.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#22

Post by seibelj » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

The Pandora Papers recently released had terabytes of data and 13 million documents of how the richest people and politicians on earth avoid taxes. Bitcoin was used exactly zero times.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#23

Post by NoGravitas » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #13

dqx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

Is the game show host still president?

25% of all Americans, and 53% of self-identified Republicans believe so.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#24

Post by maxwell » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

Looks like this is mostly about PoW.

Here's a recent report on the environmental impact of PoS:

http://blockchain.cs.ucl.ac.uk/blockchain-energy-consumption...

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#25

Post by ivalm » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

jackt89 wrote: post #18

ivalm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation (at levels that it happens in developed countries) is good, as it forces people to spend on goods and services or invest in productive enterprises. It is actively bad for the society if one can just sit on money. Taxation is as voluntary as it can be in democracy given that you elect the government which sets the rate and then pay into commons. You can’t rely on purely voluntary contribution as then people…

You will have your money's value stolen from you through inflation. You will be forced to consume. And you will be happy.

Society grows through investment. This comes either through capital inflow or consumption, and honestly success of the US lies in the “consumption.” It’s the thing that brought so much convenience and material well-being to our lives. So “consume and be happy” is unironically true. In as much as the entire concept of money is purely intersubjective we should shape it for societal good.

Again, you won’t lose real value if you keep your money invested (and for example do TIPS if you want low risk).

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#26

Post by haswell » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #13

dqx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

Is the game show host still president?

The fact that he is not does not invalidate the parent comment and your question sidesteps the fact that he left lasting damage that is still playing out on the political stage today.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#27

Post by NoGravitas » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

jackt89 wrote: post #18

ivalm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation (at levels that it happens in developed countries) is good, as it forces people to spend on goods and services or invest in productive enterprises. It is actively bad for the society if one can just sit on money. Taxation is as voluntary as it can be in democracy given that you elect the government which sets the rate and then pay into commons. You can’t rely on purely voluntary contribution as then people…

You will have your money's value stolen from you through inflation. You will be forced to consume. And you will be happy.

I don't know about you, buddy, but most people are forced to consume practically all of their income to keep their family fed and to keep a roof over their heads. Having savings that could be eroded by inflation is not really a relatable problem to have, in general.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#28

Post by bitxbitxbitcoin » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

The benefits are that the government isn’t in control of the monetary supply. Period. If that doesn’t seem like a benefit, then of course cryptocurrency seems useless.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#29

Post by endisneigh » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

haswell wrote: post #26

endisneigh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the game show host still president?

The fact that he is not does not invalidate the parent comment and your question sidesteps the fact that he left lasting damage that is still playing out on the political stage today.

It literally does. He was democratically removed. The fact he left lasting damage is besides the point, and no system of government can prevent bad actors, only minimize the damage.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#30

Post by seibelj » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

NoGravitas wrote: post #4

xrd wrote: post #2

I still think war and oil are dirtier and don't see a way to wean ourselves off that consumption and impact. I do see that cryptocurrencies are moving toward energy reduction through things like proof of stake and L2s. https://susanfsu.medium.com/think-btc-is-a-dirty-business-co...

HERE IS THE ARTICLE YOU CAN SEND TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY SAY “BUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES WITH CRYPTOART WILL BE SOLVED SOON, RIGHT?” https://everestpipkin.medium.com/but-the-environmental-issue... The promise of "proof of stake eventually" is just greenwashing.

This is a terrible article written by someone who doesn't know anything. Plenty of proof of stake coins are currently active, such as Binance Chain, Ripple, Avalanche, Cosmos, Polkadot, and on and on. Ethereum will get there but they are being very careful.