Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated • Hacker News Board

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#11

Post by asdff » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

NoGravitas wrote: post #4

xrd wrote: post #2

I still think war and oil are dirtier and don't see a way to wean ourselves off that consumption and impact. I do see that cryptocurrencies are moving toward energy reduction through things like proof of stake and L2s. https://susanfsu.medium.com/think-btc-is-a-dirty-business-co...

HERE IS THE ARTICLE YOU CAN SEND TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY SAY “BUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES WITH CRYPTOART WILL BE SOLVED SOON, RIGHT?” https://everestpipkin.medium.com/but-the-environmental-issue... The promise of "proof of stake eventually" is just greenwashing.

The behavior of these cryptocurrency folk is indicative that they don't care about the environment at all. If they did, there would be something like a carbon tax set up to pay for the externalities that are currently being caused until these underlying environmental issues are solved by some future technology. Since no one has any interest in cutting into their profits for that right now, motives are clearly not aligned to fix the environmental issues. This is where regulation comes in to incentivize good behavior and make bad behavior too costly to make any fiscal sense to continue.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#12

Post by dqx » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#13

Post by endisneigh » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

dqx wrote: post #12

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

Is the game show host still president?

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#14

Post by ivalm » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

nolantait wrote: post #6

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

What about the idea that it acts as a balancing weight to the perverse incentives for countries to debase their currency? Radically if the relationship to taxation was more of a voluntary customer relationship it could lead to better outcomes, ignoring how many more problems it might bring. Thoughts?

Inflation (at levels that it happens in developed countries) is good, as it forces people to spend on goods and services or invest in productive enterprises. It is actively bad for the society if one can just sit on money.

Taxation is as voluntary as it can be in democracy given that you elect the government which sets the rate and then pay into commons. You can’t rely on purely voluntary contribution as then people would simply not contribute. Society gets into tragedy of the commons all the time where the global optimum requires contributions that are locally disavantageous, this is why we must have contribution to commons.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#15

Post by gt565k » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

PoS blockchains like cardano have solved the carbon and energy problem. Move over bitcoin.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#16

Post by paisawalla » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #7

Another industry in need of carbon taxes. Stuff like bitcoin would be a lot more palatable if its users paid for the externalities they saddle upon everyone else from their carbon usage.

Externalities like that should be priced into the utility bill. In CA, you will see steep overages when you reach the upper tiers of utilization.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#17

Post by hparadiz » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

The energy consumption used by asics per hash unit is NOT known as claimed in this link. The actual rate drops over time.

The article makes so many assumptions that are basically estimates that even posting this on HN is sad.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#18

Post by jackt89 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

ivalm wrote: post #14

nolantait wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the idea that it acts as a balancing weight to the perverse incentives for countries to debase their currency? Radically if the relationship to taxation was more of a voluntary customer relationship it could lead to better outcomes, ignoring how many more problems it might bring. Thoughts?

Inflation (at levels that it happens in developed countries) is good, as it forces people to spend on goods and services or invest in productive enterprises. It is actively bad for the society if one can just sit on money. Taxation is as voluntary as it can be in democracy given that you elect the government which sets the rate and then pay into commons. You can’t rely on purely voluntary contribution as then people…

You will have your money's value stolen from you through inflation. You will be forced to consume. And you will be happy.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#19

Post by cwkoss » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

The idea of taxing cryptocurrencies specifically for carbon emissions is some mixture of naive, shallow and sour grapes. There are a lot of wasteful industries - crypto is a small slice of the overall pie and is arguably the most responsive to market forces.

Make universally applied carbon taxes across all industries and let the market sort it out. I'm a crypto bull, and fully support greening our energy economy. Advocating taxing energy consumption based on use is a recipe for corrupt insider dealing and political favoritism.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#20

Post by iszomer » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

dqx wrote: post #12

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

Shouldn't be a surprise as we've elected an actor before.