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Is 40 the New 60?

neverworkintheory.org

321–330 of 381 posts

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds good, but my company measure your readiness for promotion by your dedication, and uses extra hours worked as a proxy for that.

My 2c (im 40. Been IC dev for 10 years, CTO, VP, and now an 'aerchitect'): [Your current company] doesn't matter. Your family matters 10000 times more. Dont expect to grow in your company. As a 30 year old there are TONS of companies and startups looking for you. In fact now that you dont need a job is a good time to comb the market and apply to a couple of them. That way you get some experience in the current hiring…

Yeah, but I need the money to support my family and there aren't many options in my region.

I did apply to one, but never heard back. It was about 2x salary. It even seemed interesting - Android dev for a medical device startup. I guess my Android skills weren't advanced enough (I just have a couple very simple apps).

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most refer to specific aspects of my experience, some specifically referencing my current role (ie. they've read my LI, which also clearly shows my grad date)... some are spray and pray. Probably 80% of things that come my way are applicable to what I do both in skillset and title (Lead/principal/staff/director roles). Does it matter? If there is some way that recruiters are filtering based on age, my age is clearly…

At least some of these are auto-filled templates with scraped data -- I got one where "I was really impressed by your experience at ." -- yes, just a space and a period. Probably slightly modified from the defaults provided by a hiring CRM platform. You can tell the ones that really are different, because they mention something a scraper or AI wouldn't figure out.

Point still is if they're filtering by age, they can do that, and they're not doing it in my case.

I mean, I'm sure there's probably some of that, but not in any material way that I even have a hint of age discrimination thrown in my direction.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#323
post #154

This is a very American centrist point of view. In Europe everywhere I worked there were a bunch of 40+ year olds writing code, it's just yet another profession. No big deal. I've found even a good amount of people at that age that were career switching(to development) and haven't had big issues entering the job market. But of course, you have to be flexible. Move elsewhere, or where the jobs are. Your white hair doe…

I'm in Brasil and I think it is worse than USA. There are just bad jobs for new hires.

Symptom might be the same, but the root causes are completely different. Most people in their 40s that work as a developer already left Brazil or work remotely for overseas. What do you think this does to the market? Also, all the labour laws do a great deal to make things worse. The whole cost of a tech business in Brazil is so prohibitive that cutting down workforce to the cheapest possible became a practice. This means newly grads every year, and high rotation.

I am not at all saying companies are correct in their assumption. I am just guessing where the cause is, in my opinion.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#324
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of factors at play. Yes, there's incentives to 'lie' and say "this can't be upgraded". There's also incentives to say "this is old and is bad and we have to rewrite!" - I've seen a lot of resume-driven-development. There are people who will lie to avoid having to learn an old platform as well.

Very true. In my experience the rationale to lie to upgrade has a higher burden because it has to overcome the inertia of a status quo that has at least worked for some time. It tends to be easier to advocate for a past solution than an unproven one.

if/when the aforementioned 'non-software-minded managers' are the audience that needs to approve requests... all bets are off, ime.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we discuss these types of candidates, that is always the tone of the discussion. It's good to discuss the pluses and minuses of an approach, we encourage this in our architecture section of the interview loop and during the initial screen when discussing line items in the resumes. It's having a general negative attitude... bad mouthing past employers, being negative to a tech stack (and literally not couching it…

You’ll find a lack of social intelligence in the entire age range, but younger candidates seem to get more of a pass than older ones (or perhaps because the senior candidates have more rope to hang themselves with). Over negativity about past employers is indeed a warning sign (though some negativity is fine, like if you ask the question “what did you dislike about your past employer? “), but pessimism in small quant…

"You’ll find a lack of social intelligence in the entire age range"

But this is specifically an issue more prevalent in older candidates, and is in large part the reason for a pass. We pass on younger candidates as well for this reason, but most prevalently for skill.

"If they can’t list the bad as well as good about some tech, they probably don’t really understand it."

I literally just said we consider this a positive and that we specifically dig in for this. It seems like you're willfully misinterpreting the message here, which is underscoring the point I'm actually making.

Seriously, don't be that person.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#326

Don't even get me started (just take a shufti through my posting history on this very site. You'll see this is a subject that has my attention) . > while the experience that comes with age is valued in fields like music, it counts against you in tech. Yup. The Jurassic-scale disasters that are becoming increasingly common, these days, are evidence of unsteady hands at the wheel. I'm not saying that older folks are be…

The kind of experience that ages well is operations and organizations i.e. knowing how to run the business, not technology. An advantage of having worked at many companies that can't be overstated is the exposure to many different ways of addressing myriad organizational and operational challenges in different business contexts in practice. My experience with technology 20 years ago is worthless. But my experience wo…

What does "getting up there in age" mean?

It has been my experience that the mid-thirties are kind of a "golden window" for senior-level talent. Some people think of it as "older," but not that many.

We're old enough to have had the sharp edges worn away, but not yet old enough to make the management uncomfortable.

Once we start getting into the 40s (or, heaven forbid, the 50s), attitudes start changing -drastically. It's -sort of- OK to be a manager, but not a critical path engineer.

I will say that you seem to be an interesting chap, and I suspect that "the conventional rules" probably don't really apply to your work. Looks like fun.

For me, I like to make stuff that people use. I'm not particularly interested in changing the world (although I have, for a particular demographic -long story). I like getting my hands dirty, and Usability/Accessibility/Localization is a big deal. I like to put simple faces on complicated backends, and open tech to as many folks as possible. Most folks hate "computers," so I try to "decomputerize" tech. It's fun; especially when I see people using my work.

I consider myself to be more of a "craftsman," than a "scientist." It's a labor of Love; not just for my own satisfaction and work, but also for the users of my work. That's one reason I like working with an NPO. My whole family has been in Service, of one kind or another. My younger brother and I are the "redneck engineers." The rest of the family is a bit more Ivy League. My younger brother used to run group homes for kids that are wards of the state. He burned out on that, and became an engineer. He's worked at his [Fortune 20] company for over 20 years. It's a pretty big deal. He's self-taught, like me.

I was reading an article that said that age-compensating plastic surgery is very common in Silicon Valley, and that most patients prefer having the procedure done on a Friday, so they can heal over the weekend, and probably get away with it not being obvious when they get back to work.

New York's ageism problem (although many don't believe that it's a "problem," at all) is much more pronounced than SV (especially in Brooklyn). I'm wondering if a reason might be that NY has been a tech hub for a far shorter period of time, and we haven't had a "critical mass" of engineers "age out," yet.

I stopped going to (very good, and very energetic) NY meetups, a long time ago. It's abundantly clear that my just being there, is unnerving to a lot of folks. As I walk around the room, a big clear space automatically happens around me; like I'm in the eye of a hurricane. It's pretty obvious that I'm not usually a welcome addition to the milieux. And that's all before I even open my mouth. People don't seem actively hostile; but they avoid me. I don't get dirty looks. In fact, I don't seem to get eye contact at all.

Absolutely no one introduces themselves to me. I'm fairly affable, and have no problem reaching out to others. When I do that, we often have a good chat (although some, I can see, are looking for the exits).

Surprisingly, I often find that the people who avoid me the most, are the older members of the crowd.

That's interesting.

I can have some great chats with younger folks. I never try being "down with the kids," and I know better than to do an "OK boomer" thing. I'm a fairly good listener, and ask questions designed to encourage folks to talk about themselves, and their passions. That usually works well with younger folks.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#327
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. In my experience the rationale to lie to upgrade has a higher burden because it has to overcome the inertia of a status quo that has at least worked for some time. It tends to be easier to advocate for a past solution than an unproven one.

if/when the aforementioned 'non-software-minded managers' are the audience that needs to approve requests... all bets are off, ime.

To be fair, most of my experience is where software is an enabling function, not viewed as the end deliverable. E.g., control software for hardware. In most instances, the project managers were hardware folks and that tends to cause the problems you might be alluding towards.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#328
post #320
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i agree with your point and it is why I have resisted becoming a manager at my current role at a FAANG. I was previously a manager for my team at my previous company. However I got to both manage, and continue developing. After switching companies, I've been offered management positions multiple times. However the reality is that at a FAANG, you rarely see managers who get time on the box anymore. I know a lot of man…

Management is a different career path though and coding is not one of the skills they require even for software management jobs. The problem is really more applicable to senior technical roles like tech leads, architects, where it is actually reasonable to expect them to be able to code.

The problem is that it's not really treated as a different career path by many people.

Lots of people leave management roles and try and apply for IC roles at other companies. It's also really difficult to go from management at one company to management at another for many people.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned elsewhere in the this chat, I'm a 45 yo principal engineer at my current company who has seen nothing but an increase in attention from recruiters since turning 40. I'm also directly involved in hiring for my team, having helped add 15 members over the last year, working directly w/ the director to review all resumes, handling maybe 30% of the screens, and usually the veto vote. We've interviewed a numbe…

Some pessimism is good. We're older, we've seen it fail already. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again just in a different programming language. That's why you hire older programmers.

From one older dev to another - you’re misinterpreting the message.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#330
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two options: * Ask why they keep coming? Maybe you aren't understanding their question, they want to build the relationship, or it's a really risky operation and they don't want to undertake it alone. This might be worth digging into. * Write the answer down to the questions (wiki, internal doc, whatever). When they ask, point them to what you've written down. Will still take some time and interrupt you, but hopefull…

Who reads though? We had a build prerequisite check that output "error: package xxx is out of date, run sudo apt upgrade - see wiki.local/XXX for more details" They still copied the error to me and asked what to do. I said follow the instructions in the message. They said cool thanks and did so.

It seems trivial to you, but only because _you know to trust the message and what’s written in the wiki already_. The hardest thing about documentation is establishing this chain of trust. By coming to you and getting a verbal confirmation they establish one tiny link in that chain.

Edit: just thinking out loud here. These error messages are equivalent to a random passerby without any skin in the game saying “oh just run this command” — how would one trust them when their job is on the line? I can think of a few common approaches: - “oh just run this command because paragraph 1.2.3 in the universal code we all agreed to says so” (easy to confirm) - “oh just run this command because senior engineer X said it’s safe” (assuming you believe that they did say that) So maybe the error messages should include some equivalent of those.

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