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Open Source Tax Software

ctskennerton.github.io

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Re: Open Source Tax Software

#211

Post by mindslight »

the_pwner224 wrote: post #89

You don't need software to file taxes. You can download the forms (1040, etc.) from the IRS website (and your state IRS's website), fill them in, print them out, and mail them to the IRS. It costs a few (literally a few) dollars for the postage and a certificate of mailing from the USPS as proof that you had the forms sent out by the deadline. The forms are not super straightforward but not incredibly complex either.…

Last I checked, the federal forms are fillable PDFs that work with libre software (eg evince). The forms themselves are quite straightforward, the problem is everything leading up to the forms.

To me, the value proposition of tax software is that it walks you through all the topics interview style, so you can kind of relax and go with its flow. Otherwise you've got to create that structure yourself - determining what's relevant, sorting income into categories, figuring out what boxes it's supposed to go in, what schedules you need, etc.

I wonder if libre software that only did the interview portion would be more sustainable. It could create category tallies and supporting statements that don't really change every year, and direct you to fill those numbers in on the forms in the appropriate box. Then it wouldn't have the maintenance burden of creating print-ready forms that haven't even been released until taxes are due.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#212

Post by triceratops »

qzw wrote: post #98
bjarneh wrote: post #90

Filing personal taxes in the US sounds like filing taxes for a company in other countries. A complete nightmare consisting of tons of forms that some bureaucrat dreamed up, which nobody really knows how to fill out correctly. Software exists to fill them out for you, and if you use some well-known software to do it, it's just assumed to be correct by everyone; including the state.

This perception is what keeps a lot of tax preparation companies in business. I know people who could fill out their taxes in 10 minutes, who would instead pay hundreds of dollars every year to have it done by one of those “tax stores.” If US high schools would spend one day to walk kids through filling out a tax return, they’d probably put H&R Block out of business. Which is also why it’s won’t ever happen.

> If US high schools would spend one day to walk kids through filling out a tax return, they’d probably put H&R Block out of business.

Lmao no. Look at the number of people who eat out every day instead of cooking.

People go to H&R Block because filing taxes is tedious, boring and can land you in jail (or at least, serious legal hot water) if done wrong.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#213

Post by ghaff »

javagram wrote: post #187
ghaff wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So sure. You can write software that can handle a simple Federal-only case. (Basically what used to be a 1040-EZ: W-2(s), a couple 1099s with all the cost basis info existing, standard deductions, etc.) But, at that point, your taxes are pretty simple to fill out anyway and I'm guessing there are even spreadsheet templates out there that let you type in some numbers and everything is calculated.

Moreover, the simple cases are also supported by the IRS free fillable forms product. https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/

Note that this isn't "the IRS." It's an IRS public-private partnership that people below some income threshold can use for free.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#214

Post by hankdoupe »

If you're interested in using open-source tax software for analyzing policy changes, here are a few really cool projects written in Python:

- https://taxcalc.pslmodels.org/

  - webapp here: compute.studio/PSLmodels/Tax-Brain/new/
- https://github.com/nikhilwoodruff/openfisca-uk

  - webapp here: https://uk.policyengine.org/
(disclosure: I'm one of the maintainers of Tax-Calculator and Compute Studio)

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#215

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

drstewart wrote: post #96
bjarneh wrote: post #90

Filing personal taxes in the US sounds like filing taxes for a company in other countries. A complete nightmare consisting of tons of forms that some bureaucrat dreamed up, which nobody really knows how to fill out correctly. Software exists to fill them out for you, and if you use some well-known software to do it, it's just assumed to be correct by everyone; including the state.

90% of people in the US could fill out their taxes by hand in less than 5 minutes. It's Yes, the IRS could do even this for you, but there's a myth that US taxes are always monstrously complicated that everyone likes to perpetuate: 1) The tax companies like it because it keeps people scared of doing it themselves 2) Tax reform advocates like it because it's they can cluck and shake their head at the corrupt governmen…

>90% of people in the US could fill out their taxes by hand in less than 5 minutes. It's

Even when 1040-EZ was a thing (which it isn't any more), it was only relevant for filers with no dependents (e.g. no children), and given that something like 40% of households have children under 18 I am pretty sure that 90% is a bogus.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#216

Post by Isthatablackgsd »

silisili wrote: post #28
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

Funny you mention that, the first time I tried to use Credit Karma Tax, either last year or the year before, they punted on me for having lived in two states. I agree with your sentiment, but not resolution. The truest resolution is in simplifying the tax code, which Intuit and co do not want. Edit to add: When CreditKarma gave up on me, I tried FreeTaxUsa. It sounds like a scam I know, but they are top notch, and ch…

Honestly, the best solution for all of this is use the local CPA or Licensed Tax Preparer. No, I don't mean HR Block or chain tax preparers. I have my own and it is the best money spent since my CPA know the state and the federal taxes further than Intuit software (Intuit use dark patterns to take advantage of everything).

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#217

Post by tobias3 »

hyperpallium2 wrote: post #53
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

> It takes an army to build and maintain Perfect for open source - if decomposable, so each issue can be dealt with in isolation (or many can). e.g. using a "plug-in" architecture of some kind. And somehow recruit non-dev folk - if you go to the trouble to understand some specific tax point, you often would like to share it, and also record it in some "easy to use" form, for next time (and a starting point for amendm…

The German tax system works this way. German authorities specify the rules in a DSL and e.g. https://www.elster.de is generated from them where you can fill out all the tax forms (also e.g. companies). Stuff that they already know can be pre-filled.

Sure it would be great if that was Open Source, but it does its job this way as well?

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#218

Post by BrandoElFollito »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #139
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

The french initiative started in 2013 is still alive (last commit a few days ago), and passes the gov test suite (they keep in touch with our version of the IRS): https://github.com/openfisca/openfisca-france The way we got this is interestingly twisted. French citizens requested the software used by the administration, and they managed to get it! But, it was written in Mlang, a proprietary language created by the fr…

I am French and I never heard about this project. I pay taxes on the taxes web site where everything is filled in for me, so no need to use any software. The whole exercice takes literally 30 seconds.

This is not to day that the software is not useful (the API looks great after a quick reading), but it will be used by a very small population.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#219

Post by BrandoElFollito »

sofixa wrote: post #100
ivolimmen wrote: post #79

I keep being perplexed by how the Americans do stuff. I am Dutch and my government makes it (relatively) easy to do taxes. We got a website we can go to; it's filled by the government and we just need to verify that it is filled correctly and then click submit. Some people can make adjustments where needed and if needed. You can also let an accountant do it for you but that is optional; but useful if you have had a t…

Same here in France, there's a website with a multi-stage form, with fields for various things ( revenues, deductions, etc.). Everything they know (revenues from employment, self-employment, investments via French entities, etc.) is pre-filled, you just have to check it, and if something is missing you add it. For 90% of people it's a matter of next-next-check this value with my payslip-next-next.

Using the site is easy, it gets much more complicated the moment you have something to add (due to the enormous complexity of the tax system, even for simple things).

But I agree that almost for everyone it is a 30 seconds exercise to do the taxes.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#220

Post by city41 »

> Your options are to do it by hand, pay someone like Intuit, or if you are below a certain income threshold get some tax software for free

You can also hire an accountant. Our accountant does our taxes for just a tad more than what TurboTax's self employed tier costs. Even if we could get away with TurboTax's deluxe tier, I'd still argue the slight added cost of the accountant is well worth it.

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