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Is 40 the New 60?

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Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#211

Post by Icathian »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #194
Icathian wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said nothing about what is fair, or what should be. I'm describing what is . Programmers jump jobs every 2-4 years (myself included) because it's the best way to reliably get good pay increases, and because staying more than 10 years at one company often makes it harder to get hired at the next place. You can blame me for recognizing that all you want, but it's a pretty well-known truth of our industry. I want it t…

> it's a pretty well-known truth of our industry There are a lot of bad things about our industry, repeating the stereotypes that lead to them is still harmful. Which brings me to... > I'm not sure what about that you object to so strongly. Simple: If you were in a a position where you were screening resumes, I think you would rule out people with long tenures purely on the basis that the tenure was long. I am saying…

If it makes you feel any better, I did the hiring manager thing for 2 years before deciding I couldn't stand it, and the average age of my team was 55. I did my bit to not exacerbate this situation.

My fervent goal is to stay an IC through retirement. Doing that successfully requires playing the game.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#212

Post by MontyCarloHall »

moron4hire wrote: post #91
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #16

I wonder how much ageism is due to the fact that basic coding skills can really atrophy in senior developers who quit writing code years ago and are full-time architects/managers. I’ve interviewed more than a handful of highly accomplished people with decades of experience as developers and then engineering managers who couldn’t answer extremely basic coding questions (I’m not talking about Leetcode-esque BS, I mean…

I've had similar experiences interviewing candidates, but it's been across the age range. I've never interviewed anyone who has forgotten how to code, but I have interviewed a lot of people who never learned in the first place.

If this is the case, then it would only compound the problem. Early 20s and never actually learned to code? If you stumble through the interview, a company might still take a chance on you, attributing your apparent lack of coding ability to being junior. 40+ and never learned to code, yet “fell upwards” into a management role that doesn’t require any actual technical skills? Good luck getting hired anywhere else; when your lack of actual skills becomes apparent during the interview, it will not be charitably brushed aside.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#213

Post by wonderwonder »

I think its important to look younger / in shape on a zoom call these days. Noticed I have gained a little weight and my face is looking tired in a few recent zoom calls (I am on zoom everyday now). Zoom is just your face right there taking up the screen and with so much of hiring done via the web now it takes on more importance. Going to start working out again this weekend, and see if I can get that youthful employable look back. In person interviews make it easier to minimize this, zoom makes it a necessity.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#215

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #158
Icathian wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You post this all the time. You did 27 years at one single company, as you point out so proudly and often. After a stint like that, anyone would be unhireable. It isn't your age, as so many others on this chain have pointed out. You didn't build your CV to be attractive to new employers at all , and when eventually that became relevant again, you were out of luck. I read your posts whenever I see them, it's obvious y…

> You did 27 years at one single company, as you point out so proudly and often. After a stint like that, anyone would be unhireable. Next time you hear someone complain about why programmers jump jobs ever 2 years, point them to this cynical and stereotyping comment. In my opinion this is no different from saying "What, you didn't graduate from college? Well, obviously you are unhireable", but I bet 'Icathian would…

Oh yeah...I'm a high school dropout with a GED, and some redneck tech school training.

I've managed to do OK, even with that. In fact, it has probably helped me to be much, much better at my job.

I call it "the Boy Named Sue" problem[0]. I have had to deal with so damn much adversity, in my career, that it has forced me to constantly deliver, and go "above and beyond," in everything I've done. I've looked up a lot of noses, and it does make me cranky, but it has also forced me to be pretty good at what I do. No one will take me at my word. I have to show them.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOHPuY88Ry4

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#216

Post by Icathian »

circlefavshape wrote: post #209
Icathian wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You post this all the time. You did 27 years at one single company, as you point out so proudly and often. After a stint like that, anyone would be unhireable. It isn't your age, as so many others on this chain have pointed out. You didn't build your CV to be attractive to new employers at all , and when eventually that became relevant again, you were out of luck. I read your posts whenever I see them, it's obvious y…

> After a stint like that, anyone would be unhireable I've been with my current employer for 4 years, and all going well I'll stay with them until retirement (I'm almost 50 now, so another 15-odd years). The pay is good (for where I live), the work is varied and mostly interesting. It'd seem a bit crazy to jump ship just in case they take against me at some point in the future, no?

I think it would be in your case, but it is something of a gamble, isn't it. At some point I'll hit the job I want to (and think I have a good shot at) retiring from and probably try for it myself. I'm not really sure how that'll look for me.

Making that call at 50 is a lot different than making it in your early 30s, I would think?

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#217

Post by taffronaut »

> while the experience that comes with age is valued in fields like music

That's a very rosy view of a cutthroat industry. The only exceptions I can think of are well-established stars with a back catalogue of hits. If you're a singer looking for work, good luck if you look much over 35.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#218

Post by agentultra »

alexwebb2 wrote: post #133
jasode wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

The implicit assumption powering this is that programming experience from 35 years ago is not only irrelevant to today’s challenges, but undesirable due to having the wrong habits and patterns of thinking; this stands in contrast to surgery or management skills which are widely perceived to be more timeless with candidate value compounding with experience. It’s plainly false for all sorts of reasons, but that’s the s…

> The implicit assumption powering this is that programming experience from 35 years ago is not only irrelevant to today’s challenges, but undesirable

I think the implicit assumption has it the wrong way around. It seems like the industry takes about 30 years to catch up with the mathematicians who had discovered the solution to our problems.

We create this problem for ourselves. Some hot new web framework rediscovers the continuation monad and treats it as a novel invention. Giving it a slapping new name, a slick logo, and talks at the hottest industry events. A whole generation of developers learn to talk the talk, walk the walk, and hit a wall. The next framework comes along and suddenly they're, "too out of fashion."

Computing hasn't changed radically in a long time and certainly not programming.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#219

Post by comeonseriously »

brandall10 wrote: post #136
jasode wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

As mentioned elsewhere in the this chat, I'm a 45 yo principal engineer at my current company who has seen nothing but an increase in attention from recruiters since turning 40. I'm also directly involved in hiring for my team, having helped add 15 members over the last year, working directly w/ the director to review all resumes, handling maybe 30% of the screens, and usually the veto vote. We've interviewed a numbe…

Some pessimism is good. We're older, we've seen it fail already. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again just in a different programming language. That's why you hire older programmers.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#220

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

Icathian wrote: post #117
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #37

Don't even get me started (just take a shufti through my posting history on this very site. You'll see this is a subject that has my attention) . > while the experience that comes with age is valued in fields like music, it counts against you in tech. Yup. The Jurassic-scale disasters that are becoming increasingly common, these days, are evidence of unsteady hands at the wheel. I'm not saying that older folks are be…

You post this all the time. You did 27 years at one single company, as you point out so proudly and often. After a stint like that, anyone would be unhireable. It isn't your age, as so many others on this chain have pointed out. You didn't build your CV to be attractive to new employers at all , and when eventually that became relevant again, you were out of luck. I read your posts whenever I see them, it's obvious y…

> You post this all the time. You did 27 years at one single company, as you point out so proudly and often. After a stint like that, anyone would be unhireable

IT is a sick twisted industry.

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