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Is 40 the New 60?

neverworkintheory.org

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Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#141

Post by atemerev »

thiago_fm wrote: post #60

This is a very American centrist point of view. In Europe everywhere I worked there were a bunch of 40+ year olds writing code, it's just yet another profession. No big deal. I've found even a good amount of people at that age that were career switching(to development) and haven't had big issues entering the job market. But of course, you have to be flexible. Move elsewhere, or where the jobs are. Your white hair doe…

"it's just yet another profession. No big deal".

Exactly, in Europe software engineering is just another profession, with pretty average compensation. Which is not exactly motivating.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#142

Post by Veen »

chrisseaton wrote: post #105
SkipperCat wrote: post #33

40 is not the new 60. Not even close. At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done and my pay has been better than ever. I'm 52 now and the trend has only gotten better. Why? Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. The onl…

> You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. What makes you think that? It's absolutely possible for a 25-year-old to be a more experienced, more technically competent, and more mature than a 40-year-old. Some 40-year-olds have 20x 1 year of experience, compared to some 25-year-old's 5 years of experience. If you think you're inherently better as a 40-year-old developer than all 25-year-old developers th…

> It's absolutely possible for a 25-year-old to be a more experienced, more technically competent, and more mature than a 40-year-old.

It's also absolutely possible for a pig in a jetpack to fly past your window. Many unusual things are possible, but that doesn't make them any less unusual. In the vast majority of cases, older developers will have more experience and be more mature than younger developers.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#143

Post by quadrifoliate »

syshum wrote: post #126
quadrifoliate wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is experience valued for outside hires of CEOs but not as much for programmers? In other words, a 55-year old programmer would have 35 more years of experience than a 20-year old but that "extra 35 years of programming" doesn't seem to be valued as much as the "extra 35 years of managing" that a 55-year CEO candidate has. Why? I'll bite – I think it is because instead of licensing and regulating our profession…

hmm there are a lot of old brands and designs out there in clothing, and I dont think I have ever owned anything from a "hot new" fashion brand My clothes are either no name, or old old companies like Carhartt, levis, Wrangler, Dickies, etc...

> My clothes are either no name, or old old companies like Carhartt, levis, Wangler, Dickies, etc...

You are wearing designer clothes! Just by a designer from 1873 [1]. The equivalent programmer would be John von Neumann, maybe.

--------------------

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi_Strauss

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#144

Post by throw1234651234 »

WriterGuy2021 wrote: post #42

I've seen a few people fall off the career ladder to their doom in different fields. I once was a member of a local hackerspace and the place was like the Island of Misfit Toys. So many interesting and talented people biding there time there in between jobs and struggling to get back on the ladder. Lots of horror stories -- a homeless mechanical engineer, a couch surfing old programmer, etc. I think most of us are qu…

When I studied for the Chartered Financial Analyst exams I tried to find out who got a job after the 3-year, 750 hr minimum commitment (GCP professional architect looks like a joke in comparison). EVERYTHING I read was positive.

Once I passed, I found a ton of people in the same boat as me - unable to find work in finance. No one wanted to admit it though.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#145

Post by brandall10 »

namelessoracle wrote: post #125
brandall10 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m 45 and have never gotten more attention from recruiters, despite the fact I entered the job market during the height of the dot com era. My graduation date is clearly marked on all resumes in circulation, as is my experience showing my first internship all the way back in ‘96. It’s not only the number of ops that hit my plate, but the sheer aggressiveness of the recruiters. Very often am I contacted repeatedly, s…

The key here is Principal. 40 plus is considered fine and good for Architects/Managers and people in leadership positions. Try to get a senior engineer or below job where you are expected to be grinding out code instead.

I was a senior at my last 4 roles - IOW, I was a Sr. dev turning 40, and didn't get another higher level role until turning 43.

But yes, I have that experience in my background. I had my first principal role back when I was 32 (but prior to switching away from .NET development) and 2 other lead roles in my 30s.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#147

Post by dkarl »

SkipperCat wrote: post #33

40 is not the new 60. Not even close. At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done and my pay has been better than ever. I'm 52 now and the trend has only gotten better. Why? Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. The onl…

> I worked with someone my age who only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system. He is a dinosaur and his future is limited.

At 52, that can be a good move, if that enterprise system will be around somewhere for the next ten years. Remote work makes it an even safer bet. During that time, he can devote more attention to his family, community, and hobbies, instead of trying to make sure he is employable by the maximum number of businesses. You only get paid for one job, no matter how many you're prepared for.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#148

Post by syshum »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #143
syshum wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hmm there are a lot of old brands and designs out there in clothing, and I dont think I have ever owned anything from a "hot new" fashion brand My clothes are either no name, or old old companies like Carhartt, levis, Wrangler, Dickies, etc...

> My clothes are either no name, or old old companies like Carhartt, levis, Wangler, Dickies, etc... You are wearing designer clothes! Just by a designer from 1873 [1]. The equivalent programmer would be John von Neumann, maybe. -------------------- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi_Strauss

Exactly my point. the Comment I responded to was "No one wants old designers they want the Hot New young designers"

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#149

Post by sundvor »

wedn3sday wrote: post #119
cyberlurker wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that technically illegal?

Lots of technically illegal things happen the first time an interviewer sees your face.

I (closer to 50) always straight up say I've got two young kids and that I partake actively in their upbringing. One of them with special needs, even.

For me that helps filter out workplaces that would not be a good fit for myself.

There are a number of workplaces where a good balance is actively supported! When needed, everyone will put in extra but the expectation and in fact reality is to keep things 9-5:30 as much as possible.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#150

Post by MontyCarloHall »

freewilly1040 wrote: post #89
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #16

I wonder how much ageism is due to the fact that basic coding skills can really atrophy in senior developers who quit writing code years ago and are full-time architects/managers. I’ve interviewed more than a handful of highly accomplished people with decades of experience as developers and then engineering managers who couldn’t answer extremely basic coding questions (I’m not talking about Leetcode-esque BS, I mean…

It’s baffling to me that managers are given coding screens. As an IC I really don’t want to deal with a manager’s half thought out PR’s slapped together in between meetings. Perhaps some shops give a light meeting load. But “manager code” has a stigma for a reason.

I think there are way more companies than you think that give manager-level devs a light enough management load that they are able to (and are expected to) write extremely high quality code (indeed, some of the highest quality code in the whole company). They are also expected to carefully review code written by their subordinates.

When hiring, these people are given coding tests just as a pulse check to make sure they can actually code, since so many manager-level devs have apparently lost that ability.

I think there is a disconnect between manager-level devs who expect a glorified project manager position with zero coding requirements (and are thus insulted and shocked and assume it’s ageism when they’re given coding tests they cannot pass) and companies that expect their principals to hack on code until retirement. And while blatant ageism is clearly a problem in the industry, I’d bet that at least some of it stems from this disconnect.

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