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Is 40 the New 60?

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Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#91

Post by moron4hire »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #16

I wonder how much ageism is due to the fact that basic coding skills can really atrophy in senior developers who quit writing code years ago and are full-time architects/managers. I’ve interviewed more than a handful of highly accomplished people with decades of experience as developers and then engineering managers who couldn’t answer extremely basic coding questions (I’m not talking about Leetcode-esque BS, I mean…

I've had similar experiences interviewing candidates, but it's been across the age range. I've never interviewed anyone who has forgotten how to code, but I have interviewed a lot of people who never learned in the first place.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#92

Post by iros »

The thing is, senior programmers really aren't always that useful. We want leadership, we want big meaty projects and problems, we know so much and can do so much... Except that sometimes what needs doing is boring. It's grunt work. It's some infrastructure migration or a real simple API addition. A lot of coding is actually not that hard depending on where you are. That work we consider grunt work is a great way for a junior engineer to learn and they don't complain as much as we would. I've worked with a lot of other senior folks and (like myself) and we have entire abandoned features because no one wants to own them. It's a gift when someone junior shows up and jumps in.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#93

Post by Igelau »

lordnacho wrote: post #23

I sympathize, but I'm also starting to think there's a fountain of jobs that some devs have discovered and others haven't. There seem to be two camps of devs, one them is constantly harassed by recruiters and swimming in potential jobs, the other hardly ever comes across a job they'd want.

You have a notification from LinkedIn:

(Cute blonde recruiter / bearded hipster recruiter)

with another opportunity to

(get crucified at Amazon / work in the shady industry of sports betting / feed the cancer that we call IoT / drop fire on people in the name of defending America)

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#94

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

WriterGuy2021 wrote: post #42

I've seen a few people fall off the career ladder to their doom in different fields. I once was a member of a local hackerspace and the place was like the Island of Misfit Toys. So many interesting and talented people biding there time there in between jobs and struggling to get back on the ladder. Lots of horror stories -- a homeless mechanical engineer, a couch surfing old programmer, etc. I think most of us are qu…

I don't know. At some point, it's also a question of perception and attitude.

Falling off the career ladder is in itself a strange idea. As I get older, it seems to me that the concept has little actual reality. Few people have linear career nowadays.

At some point, things tend to take a turn for the unexpected. It can be failing to reach the position you were aiming for or suddenly finding yourself unemployed. It can also be becoming in charge of something you weren't expecting and finding you like that more than you thought.

You have to find an equilibrium between playing the card you are given and stiring your life in the direction you want. It's not always easy but you can find interesting things to do from many positions. I can't stop thinking that to you they were horror stories but that might not entierely be the case from their point of view: hanging out at an hacker space, meeting people, working on new things, that's not the worst place to be if you want to rebound.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#95

Post by mosburger »

SkipperCat wrote: post #33

40 is not the new 60. Not even close. At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done and my pay has been better than ever. I'm 52 now and the trend has only gotten better. Why? Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. The onl…

During my last job hunt a little over three years ago, I encountered what I think was some subtle ageism or at least discrimination based on family status (lots of questions about my family life when interviewed by the CTO and CEO, ultimately turned down because they didn't think I had the energy/disposition to be devoted enough to the company to put in extra effort when needed).

I ultimately got a job at a better company anyway and probably dodged a bullet, but it's pretty naïve to think it doesn't happen sometimes, especially at startups or places that pride themselves on a "startup mentality."

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#96

Post by marcus_holmes »

I just got a new job in my 50's. Everyone assumed I was a senior, despite me telling them "I don't have experience in the technologies you're using, so I'm probably not a senior in your organisation despite my decades of experience in the industry". Only one organisation actually listened to that and recruited me at the right level. The rest (that interviewed me) tended to recruit me at a senior level and then fail me for not knowing the technology well enough. Which got annoying.

Apart from that, I found the experience remarkably straightforward. But then, I haven't seen a tech recruitment market this hot since Y2K (in Berlin at least). It's a good time to switch jobs.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#97

Post by gedy »

(I'm late 40s) I think the simplest explanation is if you look and act "old", people are less excited to be around you and you have a harder time getting or passing interviews.

Out of shape, unkempt, or unpersonable older folks have a lot of bias to overcome. I've seen the reactions myself as I've been one or more of these at times. It's not fair, but it's like dating and complaining women/men don't look at what a nice person you are, etc.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#98

Post by quadrifoliate »

jasode wrote: post #73
SkipperCat wrote: post #33

40 is not the new 60. Not even close. At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done and my pay has been better than ever. I'm 52 now and the trend has only gotten better. Why? Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. The onl…

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

> Why is experience valued for outside hires of CEOs but not as much for programmers? In other words, a 55-year old programmer would have 35 more years of experience than a 20-year old but that "extra 35 years of programming" doesn't seem to be valued as much as the "extra 35 years of managing" that a 55-year CEO candidate has. Why?

I'll bite – I think it is because instead of licensing and regulating our profession like surgeons, we have opened it up to creativity and inclusion like artists or fashion designers.

As a result, programming job trends are far more similar to fashion or art than medicine. You always want the clothes from the hip new designer, but a few stalwarts (Yves Saint Laurent, Ralph Lauren, etc.) are evergreen and always in demand. They even end up influencing the larger trends of fashion. If you ask Ralph Lauren how things are going, he'll say "I'm 81 and I have no problems finding work!". You might even have individual designers who are discovered at 81 and become a hit. But that is not the condition for the average fashion designer who is 81.

Similarly, you'll hear from plenty of older programmers for whom things have worked out as they get older. My hypothesis is that they are also the ones who have kept up with changing fashions and paradigms.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#99

Post by hpcjoe »

mooreds wrote: post #56
bacro wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I keep being a jerk to junior developers that constantly comes to me with the same questions after I explained to them 10000 times and they say "Yeaah, I got it now". It is so hard to avoid being a jerk. What should I do?

Two options: * Ask why they keep coming? Maybe you aren't understanding their question, they want to build the relationship, or it's a really risky operation and they don't want to undertake it alone. This might be worth digging into. * Write the answer down to the questions (wiki, internal doc, whatever). When they ask, point them to what you've written down. Will still take some time and interrupt you, but hopefull…

I'd say "both".

1st, you need to help them get the RCA on why this question, and what context (that isn't often brought up). Its often that framing the question in context elucidates the actual problem they are working on solving, and they are seeing a misfit in concepts with the solution you've gone over with them. This is one (of many) areas where being a senior (experienced) dev/manager/leader is so critical in developing the less senior folks.

2nd, curation of notes, experiences, techniques is absolutely critical for team capability growth. Capture the problems, explain the use case/back story, explain the problems in explicit detail, explain the thought processes around the solution, and the solution. Cut-n-paste examples help. I did this when I ran my company, and found that it was quite helpful to the team. And they followed the example, and documented their own efforts.

Please don't be snide or dismissive with the less experienced. One of the reasons I see many orgs hire older/senior folks is to provide a calming, thoughtful, intentional influence on other team members.

As others have pointed out here, you need to continuously grow, learn new skills, add new capability. This should be a given. I don't want to bring "lifers" (people who hide in a company, doing only one thing, never interested in developing). I want to bring curious, intelligent people, with capability, and experience. Or if lacking experience, then a strong attitude of wanting to get their hands dirty.

Age doesn't factor into this.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#100

Post by Quarrelsome »

freewilly1040 wrote: post #89
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #16

I wonder how much ageism is due to the fact that basic coding skills can really atrophy in senior developers who quit writing code years ago and are full-time architects/managers. I’ve interviewed more than a handful of highly accomplished people with decades of experience as developers and then engineering managers who couldn’t answer extremely basic coding questions (I’m not talking about Leetcode-esque BS, I mean…

It’s baffling to me that managers are given coding screens. As an IC I really don’t want to deal with a manager’s half thought out PR’s slapped together in between meetings. Perhaps some shops give a light meeting load. But “manager code” has a stigma for a reason.

IMHO management should fix at least one bug per annum. I've suffered way too many management types who fold to business pressures which result in friction to development volition. I feel like if they maintained a small level of experience in dev they wouldn't fold so easy.
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