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Open Source Tax Software

ctskennerton.github.io

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Re: Open Source Tax Software

#141

Post by peteri »

EvanDotPro wrote: post #26
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

Around 2007-2008, as a "side project" I tried to build a web-based payroll software for a single state. Me and the developer I employed were able to get to 80% real quick, with ACH and everything. But as you say, the final 20% (edge cases) are nearly endless and ever-changing. Even a single state ended up being way too much for two developers.

Way back when I wrote accounting software in the UK. I had a conversation with my boss about us writing our own payroll software so we didn't have to a pay a third party to white label their software.

I then went and found out how many folks one of our competitors (a bit more mass market than us) had writing payroll software.

The answer was it was a six person team just to keep up with the government changes every year. We never bothered any more with that idea.

Payroll is surprisingly hard.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#142

Post by syshum »

ineedasername wrote: post #73
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

Disruption could also come from tax reform. Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. Some other countries just tell you where you stand because for the vast majority of people a standard filing is all that's required…

>> I am of course pessimistic on tax reform since that general populace just accepts "oh yeah filing taxes sucks"

That is not the hold back for tax reform, any efforts to simply the tax code gets push back from every special interest that to keep their deductions, and they point to "the others" as "unfair" deductions, so it never changes.

People with kids want to keep the massive deductions for having kids, even though childless people believe that is unfair, people with homes want to keep the deductions for home ownership even though renters believe that is unfair, and so it goes down the line for 1000's and 1000's of loop holes and deductions...

Never a one shall be expunged from the code

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#143

Post by syshum »

cranekam wrote: post #111
wahern wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. The U.S. doesn't make you do this, either. Most people don't itemize deductions. You just plug in the data from your W-2. The percentage of people itemizing was 30%, but wit…

> You just plug in the data from your W-2. This is still a lot more work than in many countries, and you still need to either fill in a paper 1040 (plus state taxes where appropriate, and some of those (cough CA) are far from simple), use tax prep software, or someone like H&R Block. In the UK, if you're in the majority of people who have one job and straightforward finances (e.g. not renting property, no CGT, etc) y…

I am 100% opposed to this model. I am even opposed to Automatic Deductions

People should have some "skin" in the game of taxation, if we allow the process to become seamless overtaxation becomes a real problem.

Even today people do not treat their Gross income as their income, they look at net. This is the wrong way to look at it.

I believe people should have to physically pay the government every month just like you do your water bill, your groceries, etc.

If people had to write a check, or trigger an electronic payment to their local taxing authority every month there would likely be more focus on where that money is going, and why the government things they deserve a huge chunk of my income (hint they do not)

This prevents the government from just raising taxes and hiding these increases.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#144

Post by ggrrhh_ta »

xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

In most countries in Europe (not only in the EU) you can download the official software from the corresponding tax authority. In many places you don't even need to send hardcopies of most documents - at most some printed page with a code and your signature. You must of course keep all the documents on which you based your tax returns in case they ask you specifically for them.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#145

Post by ggrrhh_ta »

ggrrhh_ta wrote: post #144
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

In most countries in Europe (not only in the EU) you can download the official software from the corresponding tax authority. In many places you don't even need to send hardcopies of most documents - at most some printed page with a code and your signature. You must of course keep all the documents on which you based your tax returns in case they ask you specifically for them.

oh, I forgot to say, in some countries you even received them already filled in.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#147

Post by laurencerowe »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #139
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

The french initiative started in 2013 is still alive (last commit a few days ago), and passes the gov test suite (they keep in touch with our version of the IRS): https://github.com/openfisca/openfisca-france The way we got this is interestingly twisted. French citizens requested the software used by the administration, and they managed to get it! But, it was written in Mlang, a proprietary language created by the fr…

This is great. Do most French people need to file tax returns? When I lived in Britain I only needed to file when I was self-employed and when I worked in Norway I got sent a pre-filled tax return. Now living in the US I need to file every year (both state and federally) even as a regular employee with all my income reported already reported to the government.

It all seems to be an absurd charade. Attempts to reduce the bureaucratic burden are opposed by the tax return return companies who bribe heavily to prevent any simplification.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#148

Post by gpderetta »

cranekam wrote: post #111
wahern wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. The U.S. doesn't make you do this, either. Most people don't itemize deductions. You just plug in the data from your W-2. The percentage of people itemizing was 30%, but wit…

> You just plug in the data from your W-2. This is still a lot more work than in many countries, and you still need to either fill in a paper 1040 (plus state taxes where appropriate, and some of those (cough CA) are far from simple), use tax prep software, or someone like H&R Block. In the UK, if you're in the majority of people who have one job and straightforward finances (e.g. not renting property, no CGT, etc) y…

and even if you have to fill up a tax return it is very straightforward to do it online.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#149

Post by gpderetta »

syshum wrote: post #143
cranekam wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You just plug in the data from your W-2. This is still a lot more work than in many countries, and you still need to either fill in a paper 1040 (plus state taxes where appropriate, and some of those (cough CA) are far from simple), use tax prep software, or someone like H&R Block. In the UK, if you're in the majority of people who have one job and straightforward finances (e.g. not renting property, no CGT, etc) y…

I am 100% opposed to this model. I am even opposed to Automatic Deductions People should have some "skin" in the game of taxation, if we allow the process to become seamless overtaxation becomes a real problem. Even today people do not treat their Gross income as their income, they look at net. This is the wrong way to look at it. I believe people should have to physically pay the government every month just like you…

If their take home goes down because of increased taxation, people will notice.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#150

Post by koheripbal »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #139
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

The french initiative started in 2013 is still alive (last commit a few days ago), and passes the gov test suite (they keep in touch with our version of the IRS): https://github.com/openfisca/openfisca-france The way we got this is interestingly twisted. French citizens requested the software used by the administration, and they managed to get it! But, it was written in Mlang, a proprietary language created by the fr…

France has no State/Provincial level taxes. They also do not tax global income.

These add major complexities to the US tax code.

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