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Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

thetimes.co.uk

31–40 of 157 posts

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#31
post #14

The Times and Telepgraph have been minimising Covid since day one, even providing a platform for groups such as "us for them". Right now there are no mitigations for Covid in UK schools. One of the things safer schools campaigners are pointing out is the risk of long Covid (as well as hospitalisations etc). Example of Covid in one area of the UK https://mobile.twitter.com/DmodosCutter/status/1445303921300...

The reality is exactly the opposite. The media has so overblown the risk of COVID that 41% of Democrats now believe that you have a greater than 50% chance of being hospitalized if you contract it:

https://twitter.com/PandaTribune/status/1440192783260655618?...

>>Great clip of Bill Maher citing a survey in which 41% of Democrats said that if you catch COVID, the chances of going to the hospital are >50%... (the correct answer is between 1% - 5%) Maher says the "liberal media needs to take responsibility for scaring the sh*t out of people"

Why this matters is that an over-estimation of the risk for low-risk demographics has led to behavioral patterns that are net harmful. For example, the climate of fear around COVID has maybe reduced the very minute risk the virus poses to children (0.003% IFR, or about equivalent to the risk of dying if stung by a bee), at the cost of an unprecedented rise in childhood obesity:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037a3.htm?s_cid=mm...

"Among a cohort of 432,302 persons aged 2–19, rate of body mass index increase approximately doubled during pandemic compared to prepandemic period. Persons w/ prepandemic overweight or obesity & younger school-aged children experienced largest increases."

The response to COVID, with respect to children, is going to cause far more deaths in the long run than it mitigates.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#32
post #3

If only half of the people that think they have it (5%) actually have it. Doesn’t that still mean that 2.5% of all COVID cases suffers from persistent issues? That’s still a fairly high incidence rate. At least to the extend that we can’t really ignore it.

This might be helpful for some context:

"Affecting approximately 2 to 5 percent of the population, hypochondria has no specific cause, but is often found in people who have had previous experience with a serious illness, especially in childhood" (source: https://www.everydayhealth.com/anxiety/understanding-hypocho...)

Not disputing/arguing whether Long Covid exists or how bad it could be since I'm not qualified to. But just remarking that there are plenty of people out there who regularly think they're sick/have symptoms anyway.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#33
This is something that's hard to talk about because it's both painful for patients to hear, and legitimately controversial due to shortage of data.

There doesn't seem to be a syndrome here. There's a handful of different symptoms, and they mostly don't occur together. There's certainly long-term symptoms, and mostly correlated with disease severity. You have long-term effects of hypoxia, and long term effects of lung damage, which you see in a significant number of patients who had severe disease. The hypoxia from untreated covid infection causes all sorts of multiple organ damage. This is entirely uncontroversial and well-understood.

In addition, there is some kind of likely autoimmune response, which is sometimes triggered by covid, sometimes goes away after vaccination, and has very variable severity and duration. This is really poorly understood, and seems to be similar to CFS. It is more frequent in more severe cases, but not exclusive to them (just rare for low-severity cases).

On top of that, there's an increased level of anxiety and depression in patients, but there's not enough data here to exclude a population effect. Anxiety and depression has jumped on a population level in covid-affected regions regardless of infection status.

Now, while having any long-term effect is common, having any particular long-term effect is rare, and multiple effects coinciding is both rare and strongly correlated with disease severity. My opinion is that treating these three categories of long-term effects as a syndrome is wrong, and trying to treat them as if they're the same thing is going to lead to worse patient outcomes.

There's a huge problem with this however - "long covid" is a patient-preferred term for a reason - it gets taken seriously. Those that have done the research on CFS know that patients with CFS get ignored and shrugged at for decades, and know if they lose the "long covid" wave of interest in the biomed/research/practitioner community they're screwed for the foreseeable future. Which is why patients insist on long-term post-covid effects being seen as a syndrome, and attack anyone who questions this (I have personally been attacked verbally about expressing this opinion). And I get it. CFS patients have been left alone in the dark for far too long, just like several other poorly understood diseases that systematically get ignored, mis-treated, or patients accused of making it up (see also: fibromyalgia, depression, a number of cognitive disorders in history). "long covid" is getting a fresh look at by the medical community, and this is a source of hope that it's mean to destroy. But reality doesn't care about whether it's mean, and I believe in reality we're dealing with a number of entirely separate syndromes that need to be treated very differently from each other, and bunching them together is distorting both the conversation and the treatments.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#34
post #25
post #14

The Times and Telepgraph have been minimising Covid since day one, even providing a platform for groups such as "us for them". Right now there are no mitigations for Covid in UK schools. One of the things safer schools campaigners are pointing out is the risk of long Covid (as well as hospitalisations etc). Example of Covid in one area of the UK https://mobile.twitter.com/DmodosCutter/status/1445303921300...

The question is why the Times/Telegraph (and their low-IQ equivalents such as the Mail and Express) are so keen to downplay Covid. My hunch is that their owners are losing money on property investments and are desperate to get employees back in the office, who knows.

It’s only a conspiracy theory when people I don’t like say it.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#35

Some guy says it's overblown and this is ranking on HN? Personally, I know several people who are not normally complainers or full of shit who have had some wild effects for 9-12 months after a bout of covid, including visual disturbances, extreme exhaustion, and loss of focus or mental acuity. I really don't doubt my friends who've suffered this. They're not the kind of folks who think they have made-up diseases or…

How can we differentiate COVID and lockdown symptoms?

I know someone who, six months later is still struggling to balance, suffering with cognitive problems as well as chronic recall and speech problems. We can differentiate between Long Covid and "lockdown symptoms" because nobody suffers any of these by staying indoors more often than usual and having a reduced social life.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#36

Some guy says it's overblown and this is ranking on HN? Personally, I know several people who are not normally complainers or full of shit who have had some wild effects for 9-12 months after a bout of covid, including visual disturbances, extreme exhaustion, and loss of focus or mental acuity. I really don't doubt my friends who've suffered this. They're not the kind of folks who think they have made-up diseases or…

> Some guy says it's overblown and this is ranking on HN?

The guy quoted for said statement is a professor of medicine of a reputable university, so he does have the authority thing sorted out.

Also, I feel the quote means something different than the original interpretation. After reading the article, it seems that John Bell simply states that a) long Covid is "more complicated than people assume", and b) it's incidence is lower than initial (and conservative) estimates.

The article mentions that "half of people suffering from long Covid may not have it."

And that's pretty much it.

There is no harm in improving our understanding of the real world effects of a disease.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a very bad flu in 2017 or so and could not smell nor taste for at least 4 months after I had it.

If we're sharing anecdotes here, I've been enjoying my chronic tinnitus for close to 20 years. It has developed after a bad flu and then never left. It's not a thing you can get used to, at least I haven't been able to.

As a guy who played very loud music for many years, I can relate. Until you said this I was sitting here in silence out in the country listening to frogs and now all I hear is that high whine. I think like a lot of other shit I just learn to tune it out.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#38
I highly doubt long covid is not real. In fact I believe it can be caused by any viral infection and until now has just been blown off as chronic fatigue syndrome. Kind of a catch all for fatigue that can't be explained.

A lot of people suffer under it and a big problem is that a lot of people and doctors think it's made up or lazyness.

I hope now that there are so many cases we can get a better understanding and actually be able to properly diagnose and treat it.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#39
post #25
post #14

The Times and Telepgraph have been minimising Covid since day one, even providing a platform for groups such as "us for them". Right now there are no mitigations for Covid in UK schools. One of the things safer schools campaigners are pointing out is the risk of long Covid (as well as hospitalisations etc). Example of Covid in one area of the UK https://mobile.twitter.com/DmodosCutter/status/1445303921300...

The question is why the Times/Telegraph (and their low-IQ equivalents such as the Mail and Express) are so keen to downplay Covid. My hunch is that their owners are losing money on property investments and are desperate to get employees back in the office, who knows.

> My hunch is that their owners are losing money on property investments and are desperate to get employees back in the office, who knows.

This conspiracy theory based on hunch falls with Occams Razor, as both owners and writers at newspapers likely diversify their investments like any other investor.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can we differentiate COVID and lockdown symptoms?

if you (God forbid) have covid symptoms, you'll differentiate.

That's not a scientific answer. Physical symptoms of stress include:

Low energy

Headaches

Upset stomach, including diarrhea, constipation, and nausea

Aches, pains, and tense muscles

Chest pain and rapid heartbeat

Insomnia

Frequent colds and infections

Loss of sexual desire and/or ability

Nervousness and shaking, ringing in the ear, cold or sweaty hands and feet

Dry mouth and difficulty swallowing

Clenched jaw and grinding teeth

Sounds like all of the physical symptoms of so-called long-COVID.

On top of the stress that would undoubtedly afflict a significant fraction of COVID patients, due to the massively inflated fears surrounding COVID, is the effects of physical isolation.

One of the requirements for all COVID positive cases is two weeks of total physical isolation. Numerous studies have shown that humans being physically isolated has significant negative health effects. No in person contact. No physical touch. For two weeks. All COVID positive cases, even asymptomatic ones.

There are no randomized studies, that control for factors, like the aforementioned psychological distress emanating from fear of COVID, and physical isolation, that suggests COVID causes these long-term symptoms. There are a host of potential confounding factors that could explain these correlations better than damage from the COVID infection.

Notice how extreme rigor is demanded for the ivermectin studies but then really just mere correlations is enough to draw scare mongering conclusions about COVID.

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