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Open Source Tax Software

ctskennerton.github.io

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Re: Open Source Tax Software

#101

Post by qzw »

xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

> I think the only thing that can really disrupt this dynamic are “free” commercial software (like credit karma now cash app), or government provided.

That’s why it was worth $7B for Intuit to acquire Credit Karma. They’re pretty aggressive about buying up potential disruptors.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#102

Post by Moto7451 »

qzw wrote: post #98
bjarneh wrote: post #90

Filing personal taxes in the US sounds like filing taxes for a company in other countries. A complete nightmare consisting of tons of forms that some bureaucrat dreamed up, which nobody really knows how to fill out correctly. Software exists to fill them out for you, and if you use some well-known software to do it, it's just assumed to be correct by everyone; including the state.

This perception is what keeps a lot of tax preparation companies in business. I know people who could fill out their taxes in 10 minutes, who would instead pay hundreds of dollars every year to have it done by one of those “tax stores.” If US high schools would spend one day to walk kids through filling out a tax return, they’d probably put H&R Block out of business. Which is also why it’s won’t ever happen.

Both you and the parent are right. I actually did get basic filing instructions in high school and managed to handle my own taxes easily for the first fourteen of my working years.

Eventually my taxes fell into the realm of forms that even CPAs can make mistakes on or are unfamiliar with. I am really conservative with this stuff and really make sure to pay what I owe. I, or my CPA, still make mistakes that result in the State or Federal government sending me small “you paid us too much” checks every so often. That’s been true when I’ve done it myself, used TurboTax, or used CPAs. I have a friend with similarly complicated taxes and she just got her first “you owe us $XX” letter for this TY2020 and another $XX check in her favor for TY2018 and TY2019 making the whole thing a wash.

If they can tell you that you paid the wrong amount a couple months after filing it feels like for those on a W2 and without unreported 1099 income they could just send a statement with an invoice if you owe and a check if you’re owed. The status quo for those individuals really is as you say. There’s enough complexity baked in that people throw their hands up in the air and just pay the $100 for basic tax prep that should be unnecessary in the first place and is not much more difficult than balancing a checking book.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#103

Post by lelandfe »

umeshunni wrote: post #36
3gg wrote: post #10

The real problem here is that Intuit and other companies lobby millions to maintain their status quo. The right thing to do would be to put every single dollar spent on these corporations into a government program that develops this kind of software or even does the taxes for you (this already exists in many countries in the EU.) Instead, in the US, you pay for Turbotax, they make a profit out if it, and then they us…

I see this comment on every single article about taxation on reddit and HN, but can you be a bit more specific and identify what this lobbying does and actually point at some examples?

https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap

Propublica is the definitive outlet for reporting on this stuff. They've spent years digging into bills and the millions that Intuit and H&R block spend lobbying around tax reform.

    > “For a decade proposals have sought to create IRS tax software or a ReturnFree Tax System; All were stopped,” reads a confidential 2007 PowerPoint presentation from an Intuit board of directors meeting. The company’s 2014-15 plan included manufacturing “3rd-party grass roots” support.[0]
Also of note was how after they conceded to making a government-mandated (bad, hamstrung) free filing software alternative for those making below $39k, Intuit blocked it from Google with robots.txt: https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-deliberately-hid...

...Which is important because if you start from anywhere else on their site, they'll begin hurling upsell dark patterns at the user, despite proclaiming "free" in copy in many places.

Right now, if I google "file taxes for free usa," the page "TurboTax Free Edition"[1] ranks higher – which is not the same software. And, of course, they do not link to the actual FreeFile page from there.[2]

Edit: turns out that Intuit will no longer be offering that government-sponsored Free File alternative after this year (disclosed in a blog post titled "Accelerating Technology Innovation," hah)[3]. Good riddance. The US Treasury Inspector General found that only 2.4% of taxpayers (2.5 million) actually used the free file software, whereas 5.5x that number could have filed for free, but were likely charged for it instead:

    > TIGTA estimates that more than 14 million taxpayers met the Free File Program criteria and may have paid a fee to e-file their Federal tax return in the 2019 Filing Season.[4]
[0] https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f... [1] https://turbotax.intuit.com/personal-taxes/online/free-editi... [2] https://freefile.intuit.com/ [3] https://www.intuit.com/blog/news-social/accelerating-technol... [4] PDF: https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2020reports/2020...

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#104

Post by qzw »

zakpatterson wrote: post #64
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

Open source can solve this problem. Any service you choose might be missing your edge case. But if you can see all the code and figure out where to plug in your edge case, then you can contribute it for all users in the future to enjoy. We've already seen people show up and implement features we hadn't researched yet. I encourage you to check it out.

It’s not just fixing problems though. The tax code has changes every year, so the software must be updated accordingly, which is a lot of drudgery. Open source can handle drudgery if there’s a big, passionate community. So you’d need a lot of people who are passionate about the tax code and about OSS. I’d like to see that Venn diagram.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#105

Post by noodlesUK »

One of the most brutal parts of the US tax system is the informational returns you have to do if you have any international connections at all. If you’re unfortunate enough to live abroad and be self employed or own a small business, you basically get fucked. Lookup IRS form 5471.

The US assumes that all people who have anything to do with other countries are billionaire owners of multinationals with armies of lawyers to fill out paperwork.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#106

Post by INTPenis »

What do people think of GNU Cash? I tried it once when I started up my own company and wanted to keep books. Noticed it was very much adapted for non-US audiences. Even after adding Swedish account codes it was still missing a lot of info. It was essentially a glorified spreadsheed. Could have stuck with Libreoffice calc as far as features went.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#107

Post by qzw »

fnord123 wrote: post #54
j_m_b wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government is always honest and most assuredly will make their software with the end user in mind. Combined with the excellent customer support offered by the IRS and the US government's proven track record in creating stable software used by millions, this would be the best solution.

Sarcasm aside, the IRS customer support is excellent.

Absolutely, but wait times have been increasing due to budget cuts. There’s an unhealthy fear/contempt of the IRS in the US. It’s one of the most important government agencies, and it should be treated as such and given the resources to serve the people better, instead of serving as a perpetual political punching bag.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#108

Post by kmonsen »

wahern wrote: post #86
ineedasername wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disruption could also come from tax reform. Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. Some other countries just tell you where you stand because for the vast majority of people a standard filing is all that's required…

> Some countries don't make you figure out things on your own: That's a bit like making a shopper put in the correct prices on each item they're buying and penalizing then for mistakes. A "Price is Right" game-show version of a tax filing system. The U.S. doesn't make you do this, either. Most people don't itemize deductions. You just plug in the data from your W-2. The percentage of people itemizing was 30%, but wit…

Funny you should call it the Trump tax cut since mine went up substantially for the reasons you mention.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#109

Post by amelius »

xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

> what if I lived in multiple states?

You just pick the state that gives you the smallest tax.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#110

Post by renewiltord »

orangepurple wrote: post #13
bsdnoob wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not trust any opensource software and prefer only paid software to build your systems?

Guess who is going to get pulled into court when someone's taxes get screwed up and the IRS comes after them?

As far as I know, all the tax software tells you you are responsible in the end.
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