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Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

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Re: Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

#11

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

bb88 wrote: post #9
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Negligent homicide” is hyperbole. The medication itself is safe, safer than paracetamol / acetaminophen. If you are saying it gave too many people false hope and they died from Covid, isn’t that the problem everywhere else without false hope? Are deaths in Australia “better” than deaths in Brazil because Ozzies didn’t attempt the same treatment? Does ivermectin not function extremely well as a protease inhibitor? It…

> The medication itself is safe Upon what dosage do you base that on? And particularly is it safe for covid patients, or does it increase mortality? Many doctors are in the US pushing Ivermectin and HCQ as "safe and effective" even though the #1 call to many poison control centers in the US concern Ivermectin poisoning. > Because going overboard on accusations isn’t helping anyone nor adding to any scientific discuss…

> Upon what dosage do you base that on?

The recommended human dosage. The one that hasn’t been a problem, ever, not in the millions and millions of people on it. Unlike the extremely common liver damage people get from Tylenol every year.

> or does it increase mortality?

I have never seen anyone claim that. Do you have a link that makes that claim? If you bring up a possibility without evidence. I guess that will make for spirited comments soon.

> Many doctors are in the US pushing Ivermectin and HCQ as "safe and effective" even though the #1 call to many poison control centers in the US concern Ivermectin poisoning.

Number one call would not mean number one poisoning. It has unbelievably high media attention, and discussion is being censored. People seem to be calling to ask because “officials” why wouldn’t they? If you have a citation that shows mass poisonings please post it. I could only find two confirmed poisonings in the USA. Whole tubes of horse paste like idiots.

> It's snake oil at it's worst form, and reduces trust between patients and doctors.

Good thing this has been the only example of that! I agree though, if there were questionable truths, policy decisions on 1/2 baked theories, changing and shifting narratives, that would be harmful for trust. That to me would be epic failures of policy work and would probably cause a backlash in a lot of areas.

Re: Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

#12

Post by ciconia »

dfdz wrote: post #2

I think everyone (who is reasonable) agrees the vaccine is the most effective tool we have against covid based on current scientific studies However this article about Ivermectin is not well reasoned: > As infection rates soared, some people were taking excessively high doses of the medicine every day, hoping to stave off COVID-19, but in a few rare cases that move prompted liver failure. >Other patients were unknowi…

> I think everyone (who is reasonable) agrees the vaccine is the most effective tool we have against covid based on current scientific studies.

Vaccination is perhaps the best solution in the short term, but to me it seems that preventive public health measures might be more effective over the long term.

We know that the severe cases mostly happen to people who are already medically vulnerable (overweight, diabetic, cardiovascular disease etc). Governments could have used the last two years to execute on policies to reduce these chronic diseases: better food, better air quality, better water quality, a less stressful lifestyle.

High blood pressure, high blood sugar, air pollution and obesity (not to mention smoking) are responsible for far more deaths than Covid-19 [1]. In addition, being exposed to any of those conditions is a risk factor for Covid-19. Logically, if we reduce the risk factors we can reduce both Covid-19 deaths and non-Covid-19 deaths!

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/air-pollution#air-pollution-is-re...

Re: Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

#13

Post by bb88 »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #11
bb88 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The medication itself is safe Upon what dosage do you base that on? And particularly is it safe for covid patients, or does it increase mortality? Many doctors are in the US pushing Ivermectin and HCQ as "safe and effective" even though the #1 call to many poison control centers in the US concern Ivermectin poisoning. > Because going overboard on accusations isn’t helping anyone nor adding to any scientific discuss…

> Upon what dosage do you base that on? The recommended human dosage. The one that hasn’t been a problem, ever, not in the millions and millions of people on it. Unlike the extremely common liver damage people get from Tylenol every year. > or does it increase mortality? I have never seen anyone claim that. Do you have a link that makes that claim? If you bring up a possibility without evidence. I guess that will mak…

>> or does it increase mortality?

>I have never seen anyone claim that.

It's part of being "safe and effective." -- which I believe is your stance here. It's also your burden of proof.

> The recommended human dosage.

Which is what exactly? I mean, if you want to be an expert, than be an expert. Nothing is stopping you.

Re: Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

#14

Post by bb88 »

aaron695 wrote: post #6

> hoping to stave off COVID-19, but in a few rare cases that move prompted liver failure Ivermectin does not cause liver failure. There is no evidence of this. The Tweet about the one patient does not say the patient is getting a liver transplant, and they are not sure why there was liver issues. It can cause liver injury in a really small amount of cases, which should self correct. (I assume people do not think temp…

Saying something is safe and effective doesn't make it so.

That said, the numbers of death and continued infections don't lie. Brazil was ivermectin happy, but it didn't stop the infections and subsequent deaths.

What is stopping infections and deaths? The vaccine. That's pretty clear.

So why aren't you 100% behind the vaccine? Are you too wrapped up with your stance with Ivermectin that you can no longer change your view?

Re: Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

#15

Post by smorgusofborg »

aaron695 wrote: post #6

> hoping to stave off COVID-19, but in a few rare cases that move prompted liver failure Ivermectin does not cause liver failure. There is no evidence of this. The Tweet about the one patient does not say the patient is getting a liver transplant, and they are not sure why there was liver issues. It can cause liver injury in a really small amount of cases, which should self correct. (I assume people do not think temp…

> It can cause liver injury in a really small amount of cases, which should self correct.

Great, now multiply the usage expectations by 1000 and include that people in that pool will have each possible additional liver related factor. (Now "should" being 99% isn't even good enough.)

When we analyze how safe a vaccine is, a few dozen people who might have very specific health problems having potentially fatal reactions is a problem if we can't preidentify that group. When we allow a contagion to spread to endemic and therefore eventually encompass the entire population a treatment needs a closely proportional safety level to a vaccine and will eventually need to be far safer than any long acting vaccines.

If 10% of the population are going to take any treatment much more active than placebo, it has to be safer than most OTC medications for it not to kill a hundred times more people than giving everyone the least safe vaccine.

Re: Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

#16

Post by incrudible »

bb88 wrote: post #14
aaron695 wrote: post #6

> hoping to stave off COVID-19, but in a few rare cases that move prompted liver failure Ivermectin does not cause liver failure. There is no evidence of this. The Tweet about the one patient does not say the patient is getting a liver transplant, and they are not sure why there was liver issues. It can cause liver injury in a really small amount of cases, which should self correct. (I assume people do not think temp…

Saying something is safe and effective doesn't make it so. That said, the numbers of death and continued infections don't lie. Brazil was ivermectin happy, but it didn't stop the infections and subsequent deaths. What is stopping infections and deaths? The vaccine. That's pretty clear. So why aren't you 100% behind the vaccine? Are you too wrapped up with your stance with Ivermectin that you can no longer change your…

The vaccines are not stopping infections.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7

Re: Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

#18

Post by ekianjo »

bb88 wrote: post #14
aaron695 wrote: post #6

> hoping to stave off COVID-19, but in a few rare cases that move prompted liver failure Ivermectin does not cause liver failure. There is no evidence of this. The Tweet about the one patient does not say the patient is getting a liver transplant, and they are not sure why there was liver issues. It can cause liver injury in a really small amount of cases, which should self correct. (I assume people do not think temp…

Saying something is safe and effective doesn't make it so. That said, the numbers of death and continued infections don't lie. Brazil was ivermectin happy, but it didn't stop the infections and subsequent deaths. What is stopping infections and deaths? The vaccine. That's pretty clear. So why aren't you 100% behind the vaccine? Are you too wrapped up with your stance with Ivermectin that you can no longer change your…

> What is stopping infections and deaths? The vaccine.

Vaccinated people still get and spread infections - They simply dont get much symptoms from it.

This kind of comment is exactly why people don't understand what the "vaccines" actually do.

Re: Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

#19

Post by tinus_hn »

ekianjo wrote: post #18
bb88 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying something is safe and effective doesn't make it so. That said, the numbers of death and continued infections don't lie. Brazil was ivermectin happy, but it didn't stop the infections and subsequent deaths. What is stopping infections and deaths? The vaccine. That's pretty clear. So why aren't you 100% behind the vaccine? Are you too wrapped up with your stance with Ivermectin that you can no longer change your…

> What is stopping infections and deaths? The vaccine. Vaccinated people still get and spread infections - They simply dont get much symptoms from it. This kind of comment is exactly why people don't understand what the "vaccines" actually do.

You need to believe vaccines stop infections to be able to blame the unvaccinated for the continuation of the pandemic.

Re: Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say

#20

Post by bigodbiel »

ciconia wrote: post #12
dfdz wrote: post #2

I think everyone (who is reasonable) agrees the vaccine is the most effective tool we have against covid based on current scientific studies However this article about Ivermectin is not well reasoned: > As infection rates soared, some people were taking excessively high doses of the medicine every day, hoping to stave off COVID-19, but in a few rare cases that move prompted liver failure. >Other patients were unknowi…

> I think everyone (who is reasonable) agrees the vaccine is the most effective tool we have against covid based on current scientific studies. Vaccination is perhaps the best solution in the short term, but to me it seems that preventive public health measures might be more effective over the long term. We know that the severe cases mostly happen to people who are already medically vulnerable (overweight, diabetic,…

>air quality

And that’s the reason why covid is still “not airborne”, despite the fact that, semantics aside, it’s anything but. The whole issue has become over politicized and academia has let itself take center stage of public policy.

So now we have this fixation on pharmaceutical intervention, as it could have been some miracle panacea. The more time passes, the less reasonable it is sounding and the more the same academia turned public policy maker is doubling down on them.

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