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Open Source Tax Software

ctskennerton.github.io

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Re: Open Source Tax Software

#51

Post by whakim »

umeshunni wrote: post #35
vimsee wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is a kind of XY problem that could be solved theoretically by agreeing on a more streamlined tax-regulation. It will take away the ability to fine tune tax deducts and so forth, but in return we can more easily design software to handle our taxes. I find that not having this automated nowadays with the advancement in computing resources that we have at disposal today is surprising.

Yes, software can be much simpler if the real world wasn't so complex. The reality is that governments use taxation as one of their tools to reward certain behaviors and population segments and to discourage/punish others. Simplifying taxation is taking that power away from governments. Why would any government choose to divest itself of those powers?

In many cases we could encourage/discourage the same behaviors by simply spending money on those things instead of using tax deductions. That's how most countries do it, and as a result their tax systems are much simpler.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#52

Post by kube-system »

jjeaff wrote: post #45
orangepurple wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess who is going to get pulled into court when someone's taxes get screwed up and the IRS comes after them?

Do you think if that happened while using Intuit software, they are going to pull intuit into court? When you prepare your taxes using software, it all looks the same once the IRS receives it. It will show up as self prepared. If you pay a CPA to do it, then they also sign the return. But in either case, you will be responsible for underpaying your taxes and will have to make up the difference. I doubt any of the sof…

The big tax companies do offer some guarantees of the accuracy of their calculations.

Which is probably not the kind of mistake you’ll have on your taxes anyway. Basic arithmetic is easy. And if you do make these mistakes it’s not likely the IRS does anything more than correcting it. But it’s more than no guarantee.

Also they do provide human support.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#53

Post by hyperpallium2 »

xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

> It takes an army to build and maintain

Perfect for open source - if decomposable, so each issue can be dealt with in isolation (or many can). e.g. using a "plug-in" architecture of some kind.

And somehow recruit non-dev folk - if you go to the trouble to understand some specific tax point, you often would like to share it, and also record it in some "easy to use" form, for next time (and a starting point for amendments).

Maybe a "tax DSL", "business rules"? Or a user specs it, and a dev codes it?

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#54

Post by fnord123 »

j_m_b wrote: post #21
3gg wrote: post #10

The real problem here is that Intuit and other companies lobby millions to maintain their status quo. The right thing to do would be to put every single dollar spent on these corporations into a government program that develops this kind of software or even does the taxes for you (this already exists in many countries in the EU.) Instead, in the US, you pay for Turbotax, they make a profit out if it, and then they us…

The US government is always honest and most assuredly will make their software with the end user in mind. Combined with the excellent customer support offered by the IRS and the US government's proven track record in creating stable software used by millions, this would be the best solution.

Sarcasm aside, the IRS customer support is excellent.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#55

Post by ivalm »

junar wrote: post #27
ivalm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's very useful to be able to import the many many forms for the various sources of income automatically. If you're just a w2 and a 1099-int then yes, obviously it's not hard to file taxes manually.

Those features are really only viable at the scale of large commercial tax software, not the efforts described in the submitted post. PDFs aren't exactly used in a standardized way, so trying to make this work for even a fraction of the numerous tax form issuers requires a lot of work, and a lot of ongoing maintenance. You'll need to prioritize the actual tax forms, and annual updates to those first.

Sure, but this just means open source tax software isn’t viable. TurboTax integrates with most financial services Americans use, to compete with them this functionality has to be matched somehow.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#56

Post by aorth »

silisili wrote: post #28
xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

Funny you mention that, the first time I tried to use Credit Karma Tax, either last year or the year before, they punted on me for having lived in two states. I agree with your sentiment, but not resolution. The truest resolution is in simplifying the tax code, which Intuit and co do not want. Edit to add: When CreditKarma gave up on me, I tried FreeTaxUsa. It sounds like a scam I know, but they are top notch, and ch…

> Edit to add: When CreditKarma gave up on me, I tried FreeTaxUsa. It sounds like a scam I know, but they are top notch, and cheap. Highly recommend.

Ah! I remember FreeTaxUsa. They have this silly verification thing in their signup. Your email address must be on an "American" domain. Mine is self hosted on some other domain and they literally say it's "foreign". Just checked again and it's still there. Hah... sigh.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#57

Post by bserge »

xivzgrev wrote: post #19

I worked on tax software and have seen these kind of efforts. Noble, yes. Short lived, yes. It’s relatively easy to make a free 1040 file. The real problem comes from all. The. Edge. Cases. 1) do you support xyz state? 2) what if I lived in multiple states? 3) what if i… And on and on. And it’s not just one and done. Every year IRS and states are changing their shit so you have to go thru and make all kind of updates…

Why not just say "sorry, it looks like your situation is too complicated for us at the moment" to edge cases? Would still help many people.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#58

Post by umeshunni »

junar wrote: post #39
umeshunni wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this comment on every single article about taxation on reddit and HN, but can you be a bit more specific and identify what this lobbying does and actually point at some examples?

The story of ReadyReturn in California is a pretty clear example. https://www.npr.org/transcripts/521132960

Aha, here's the actual interesting bit:

The intensity of industry opposition to CalFile has not gone unnoticed in Washington, D.C. In February, IRS commissioner Mark Everson told Congress that he was reluctant to set up an IRS direct e-file system in part because of the bruising battle he witnessed in California...And that leaves federal taxpayers with little prospect of a direct-to-government e-filing system anytime soon...In fact, the industry already ran Big Brother-themed ads in California when tax authorities there were setting up CalFile, a direct e-filing system for state taxes. Lenny Goldberg, the head of the California Tax Reform Association, says Intuit is leading the charge against direct e-filing.

But looking at https://www.ftb.ca.gov/file/ways-to-file/online/calfile/inde... , it looks like I can file my taxes for 2020 via CalFile, so what is this about then? ReadyReturn?

Well, according to

https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-t... There is one program in America, however, that provides some taxpayers with completed tax returns. Since 2007, around 80,000 California taxpayers each year have paid state income taxes this way under a program called ReadyReturn.

ReadyReturn survived corporate lobbying for one reason: Joe Bankman decided to make easy tax filing his personal mission, and he spent $30,000 to hire a lobbyist to counter lobbying by Intuit, the maker of TurboTax software.

but here's something more interesting:

Since 2015, the tax preparation industry has persuaded lawmakers to include a line in the annual appropriations bill that bars the IRS from offering pre-populated returns to taxpayers. The Financial Services and General Government Appropriations Bill approved by the Senate last month extends that ban another year.

The codification of Free File in the Taxpayer First Act and the extended ban on pre-populated returns in the appropriations bill are steps in precisely the wrong direction.

Re: Open Source Tax Software

#60

Post by [deleted] »

j_m_b wrote: post #21
3gg wrote: post #10

The real problem here is that Intuit and other companies lobby millions to maintain their status quo. The right thing to do would be to put every single dollar spent on these corporations into a government program that develops this kind of software or even does the taxes for you (this already exists in many countries in the EU.) Instead, in the US, you pay for Turbotax, they make a profit out if it, and then they us…

The US government is always honest and most assuredly will make their software with the end user in mind. Combined with the excellent customer support offered by the IRS and the US government's proven track record in creating stable software used by millions, this would be the best solution.

[deleted]
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