New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing • Hacker News Board

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#251

Post by ajsnigrutin » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

thermin wrote: post #185

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #129

I hate it how we went from simple, to simpler to totally complicated regarding computer ports. "Back in the days", it was a bunch of different ports of different sizes and shapes, and each thing had its own cable that fit into that thing only, and into only port only on the back of the pc. Yes, you needed 20 cables, but things were simple. Then came the USB... one cable, one protocol for all.... except video (firewir…

There's a lot of doom and gloom here; let's see if it really got that bad. >You need a PD charger and not a QC charger... Impossible, all USB-C QC chargers are also USB PD chargers. >into the correct usb port to charge the laptop The port is either marked (everything but MacBooks) or doesn't matter (MacBooks, pretty sweet). >buy an original charger for your laptop Good! Now you have a USB PD charger that covers your…

> Impossible, all USB-C QC chargers are also USB PD chargers.

You have a lot of USB-A QC chargers, and you just take a usb A -> C cable. [0]

> The port is either marked (everything but MacBooks) or doesn't matter (MacBooks, pretty sweet).

https://p3-ofp.static.pub/fes/cms/2021/07/01/5q6w49cnwh2ka55...

So... do I tell my grandma to plug it into the "weird robot"-symbol port (5), or the "danger, high voltage" one (6)? It fits into both.

> No, not at all. 20 to 10 years ago all charging ports (including on cameras, phones, everything) were barrel plugs of slightly different diameter; everybody's cranking out their own boxy black chargers putting out maddening variations on the same ~20V for laptops and 3-5V for smaller devices, you can't share chargers between devices, can't always find the replacement, especially if the device is on the older side. Buying a device with a different connector - bam, old charger goes to e-waste (or e-bay).

This is not really true... Some laptops maybe... Lenovo had a square one ( https://www.amazon.com/Converter-Charger-Adapter-ThinkPad-Un... ) for example. Phones had all the custom ones...

ericsson examples:

https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Cable-Ericsson-C510i-C702i/dp...

https://www.navigation-accessoires.com/en/sony-ericsson/p-se...

Either way, you brought one device + one cable, and you know where to plug it.

Yes, from an average tech nerd perspective, this might be better, because people know and remember what to use where, which protocol their devices use, and which port they have to plug it in. Normal users don't.. and if it fits, they use it like that. If they buy a custom charger for their laptop, they won't use it to charge their phone, because they know their phone charger won't charge their laptop, even though everything fits.

I'm not saying it's all bad, but dealing with several older relatives, and stuff that fits and doesn't work is making it a pain in the ass, especially with stores selling stuff (eg ikeas https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/askstorm-40w-usb-charger-dark-g... ) that works but doesn't charge if under heavy use.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Charge-Charger-Portable-Adapter-Folda...

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#252

Post by ajsnigrutin » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #245

thermin wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's something barrel plugs had going for them way before data connectors caught up :)

And then some - hadn't really thought about it until your comment, but somehow we regressed from infinite orientations (well, in that plane) to one, and are now all excited about having two ... Are there any example of barrel-style connectors with >2 pins, i.e. coaxial barrels? Similar is the 'jack' (3.5mm and such) but with split regions along a single pin rather than concentric rings of course. I wonder why such de…

There were barrels with three..

eg lenovo, two charger generations ago:

https://i.imgur.com/Wn4EM33.png

But usually the inner one was only connected via a resistor, to tell the device the wattage of the charger (but could be used by a bunch of 1 wire protocols instead.

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#253

Post by ajsnigrutin » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

scoutt wrote: post #149

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #129

I hate it how we went from simple, to simpler to totally complicated regarding computer ports. "Back in the days", it was a bunch of different ports of different sizes and shapes, and each thing had its own cable that fit into that thing only, and into only port only on the back of the pc. Yes, you needed 20 cables, but things were simple. Then came the USB... one cable, one protocol for all.... except video (firewir…

I'm pretty sure that USB wasn't created originally with charging capabilities "back in the days". Just power supply (5V @ 500mA max). Charging through USB came after and was when things started to be more complicated: someone used USB as a mean for charging a battery, then bigger batteries came, then people started to complain that devices took too long to charge, then the 500mA limit was moved, then every vendor wou…

Yeah, usb did standardize a lot...

Thunderbolt screwed a few things up, but a few users use tunderbolt devices without actually knowing what they're doing, and where to plug them.

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#254

Post by lolsal » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

ziml77 wrote: post #213

lolsal wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share this opinion. I'm deep in the Apple camp but it never bothered me that they didn't jump on USB standards. They are a complete mess and if I plugged a shoddy cable into my device and fried it I would be super pissed at Apple for putting me in a position to make that mistake. I don't charge my recent generation MacBook with anything other than the Apple charger for this exact reason.

How is a poorly made cable Apple's fault? Apple could make a proprietary connector with an apple shaped plug on each end. Yet you could still end up with a dead device because someone made a cheap clone cable with an internal fault that shorted the data line to power.

The cable is not Apple's fault. One of the reasons I like the Apple ecosystem is that I trust that they protect me from insanity like this. It's probably inevitable that they go all-in on USB in some form or fashion, but I hope they resist until it's impossible for me to *destroy my hardware* by plugging in a cable.

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#255

Post by dspillett » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #248

dspillett wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Direct link to the SO post and answer that the extremetech page paraphrases, for those who don't consent to being tracked left/right/centre and would prefer not to click hundreds of times to say so: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...

Yeah, that is a better link for the technical stuff, but you seem to imply it's clean when it comes to tracking and it's obviously not.

Fair point, I could have made the effort to make that clear, but it is far far far less _un_clean if you care at all about such things.

Two clicks to opt-out of everything¹ compared to tens, some of which include needing to visit the parter separately to opt-out there, and even then it is not complete because some simply marked “this partner does not provide an opt-out”. ExtremeTech: welcome to my DNS blacklist.

[¹] assuming you trust it to actually opt you out properly, of course

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#256

Post by com2kid » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #129

I hate it how we went from simple, to simpler to totally complicated regarding computer ports. "Back in the days", it was a bunch of different ports of different sizes and shapes, and each thing had its own cable that fit into that thing only, and into only port only on the back of the pc. Yes, you needed 20 cables, but things were simple. Then came the USB... one cable, one protocol for all.... except video (firewir…

The # of types of parallel ports was never that simple. One port, many possible speeds and support modes.

> And now? You buy a new laptop... usb-c charging, great. You need another charger, you go to the store, find a usb charger, buy it, plugi it in - everything fits - but it won't charge. You need a fast charger... back to the store, bring it home, doesn't charge. You need a PD charger and not a QC charger...

All the chargers I've gotten are multi-mode.

And yes buying a tiny charger is a problem. Yes it sucks, but back in the bad old days I had an android phone that came with a charger that could barely charge it if I was streaming video on the phone while it was plugged in. Oops!

I've also had laptops that came with such a weedy charger that it had similar issues.

FWIW my el-cheapo USB-C hub, charges almost everything.

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#257

Post by thermin » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

citrusybread wrote: post #249

thermin wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True! I literally own two identical-looking (to the most minute details of the plug itself) barrel plug chargers (one for the vacuum, the other for the elliptical trainer). One is 18V, the other is 9V, both 500mA At least I'm not afraid that the 65W USB PD charger will fry my phone lol

should absolutely be illegal. usually barrel plugs are coded for each voltage. I can one up you. Verilux sells a "happy light" SAD lamp thing, still sold at Costco, which uses a mini-USB plug, running on 19V 300mA or something. Yeah. How the FUCK does the USB Forum not shut that down?

OMG, have you tried to charge it from a sane 5V charger?

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#258

Post by JohnFen » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

dionian wrote: post #192

thermin wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of doom and gloom here; let's see if it really got that bad. >You need a PD charger and not a QC charger... Impossible, all USB-C QC chargers are also USB PD chargers. >into the correct usb port to charge the laptop The port is either marked (everything but MacBooks) or doesn't matter (MacBooks, pretty sweet). >buy an original charger for your laptop Good! Now you have a USB PD charger that covers your…

Plus USB-C doesn't require a correct orientation, you just put it in and it always fits. Maybe underrated but to me it's worth a lot...

From how often this is mentioned by people who love USB-C, I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person who never had an issue with correct orientation.

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#259

Post by ziml77 » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #140

gspr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A French octet is a byte . The b here is a bit.

I really like the idea of having distinct abbreviations for bytes/octets and bits!

Seriously! If I see something like mbps written I have to wonder whether it's saying megabits or megabytes per second. Bits is more likely only because it gives a higher sounding number, but outside of marketing either bits or bytes is equally likely.

Re: New USB-C logos make picking USB cables, chargers less confusing

#260

Post by JohnFen » Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

Ajedi32 wrote: post #177

0x_rs wrote: post #70

This is all too confusing to me. Why isn't there a mandatory (or reference) specification string that combines all the necessary, useful information in one neat package instead of countless repetitive and easily misunderstood logos? Something like (just a basic, messy example) USB-C/ / / / / /etc. I had to buy some cables recently and really couldn't pick one nor distinguish particular features at glance, and the ite…

Assuming there's not some gotcha I'm unaware of, these new logos seem sufficiently descriptive. USB-C/Bandwidth/Power/They all support AV/They all support PD. That solves the issue for cables/chargers anyway. Devices can still support whatever alt modes they want, and there's not really a way for the USB IF to fix that since the details of specific alt modes aren't really part of the USB spec AFAIK. That'd be up to t…

I don't agree that the new logos are sufficient. Perhaps "sufficiently descriptive", but they look so similar to each other that it requires people to read text (which is a UI fail right there for cables) which will be particularly hard to read when printed on tiny connectors.