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Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

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Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#81
post #8
post #3

Corporations based and operating in the US are subject to the PATRIOT Act, it's a shitty law but it's still the law. At least they are transparent about it. Edit: here is the article in question: http://www.wiwo.de/politik-weltwirtschaft/google-server-in-e... They asked if their EU based dataceters are also subject to US warrants and they answered that they are.

And corporations based and operating in Europe are subject to our data protection laws. Microsoft and Google (and plenty others) have fully fledged companies in Europe. This raises an interesting question - what should companies do when they are subject to mutually exclusive laws like that? My opinion is that they need to comply with the laws, which might require not having overseas companies in this case. Could they…

what should companies do when they are subject to two mutually exclusive laws? they don't really have a choice: they need to break one of the laws, and pay the penalty for that. the only question is which law to break, and the answer to that is the one with fewer consequences.

The EU must enact sanctions against google for this, if they don't they are essentially letting all multinationals know that EU laws are less important than American laws.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#82
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And corporations based and operating in Europe are subject to our data protection laws. Microsoft and Google (and plenty others) have fully fledged companies in Europe. This raises an interesting question - what should companies do when they are subject to mutually exclusive laws like that? My opinion is that they need to comply with the laws, which might require not having overseas companies in this case. Could they…

what should companies do when they are subject to two mutually exclusive laws? they don't really have a choice: they need to break one of the laws, and pay the penalty for that. the only question is which law to break, and the answer to that is the one with fewer consequences. The EU must enact sanctions against google for this, if they don't they are essentially letting all multinationals know that EU laws are less…

No, you've missed a possibility: their only legal option is not to operate in both countries for as long as the laws are incompatible.

That will, in this particular case, probably result in a significant dent in both the US and EU economies in the immediate future, followed by a phenomenal boost to the European economy at the expense of the US in the longer term. That will continue until the US understands that it can't just impose its will on other countries around the world any time it feels like it, and more specifically that while the US government and big business don't care much about privacy, it is a fundamental societal value in several EU countries.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#83
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is exactly what the EU did with bank and flightdata. The EU will make a bit of a fight and then simply back down. Like they always do. Which is possibly preferable for every US-company which thus do not have to challenge your agencies.

Which is not what they always do. Microsoft got some nice fines from the EU, I think more than once even.

I think we Europeans as a diverse society have far less willingness to give up basic rights than those in the US.

Public sentiment does sway sharply in the aftermath of events like 9/11 (or, in our cases, 7/7 in London and the like). We sometimes tolerate nanny state behaviour and suspending basic rights and freedoms more than I personally would like following such extreme, high-profile events.

However, even then, public sentiment seems to sway back again much faster here. Just look at the level of public concern over a tiny number of high profile deaths in the UK in recent years where police were involved, or look at how sharply Google have been slapped down over privacy in places like Germany. I think this is probably down to having a lot of very different cultures who have come together in their common interest but never merged to the extent that the US is a federation of relatively similar states. Consequently we have a much broader spectrum of political opinions permanently in play here and it's much harder to permanently overrule many years of history and precedent without someone objecting loudly enough to slow things down and force more debate.

There seems to be an inherent tension between recognising that the US is often a useful partner in economic and military matters, and recognising that we must not act as some sort of junior partner to a country that frequently gets big issues spectacularly wrong and that has a demonstrated history of screwing its partners whenever its own interests dictate.

My sense is that the US has been cut a lot of slack in recent years because of its economic strength and 9/11, particularly when we had Blair running the show here in the UK, but that public patience with the one-sided deals and all the silliness we have to put up with as a result is now rapidly running out as we have our own problems to deal with and the US are getting in the way or indeed causing some of them.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#84
post #3

Corporations based and operating in the US are subject to the PATRIOT Act, it's a shitty law but it's still the law. At least they are transparent about it. Edit: here is the article in question: http://www.wiwo.de/politik-weltwirtschaft/google-server-in-e... They asked if their EU based dataceters are also subject to US warrants and they answered that they are.

If you think the law's so shitty, why do you keep electing people like Obama and Bush who push for these things?

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what should companies do when they are subject to two mutually exclusive laws? they don't really have a choice: they need to break one of the laws, and pay the penalty for that. the only question is which law to break, and the answer to that is the one with fewer consequences. The EU must enact sanctions against google for this, if they don't they are essentially letting all multinationals know that EU laws are less…

No, you've missed a possibility: their only legal option is not to operate in both countries for as long as the laws are incompatible. That will, in this particular case, probably result in a significant dent in both the US and EU economies in the immediate future, followed by a phenomenal boost to the European economy at the expense of the US in the longer term. That will continue until the US understands that it ca…

The only legal option is to creat a world government, possibly extend the authority of UN. Governments need to match the size of multinational corporations.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#86
Key internet traffic choke points on US soil are monitored by the National Security Agency and people are surprised by this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_Factory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_co...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Klein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepting_v._AT%26T

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#87
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you've missed a possibility: their only legal option is not to operate in both countries for as long as the laws are incompatible. That will, in this particular case, probably result in a significant dent in both the US and EU economies in the immediate future, followed by a phenomenal boost to the European economy at the expense of the US in the longer term. That will continue until the US understands that it ca…

The only legal option is to creat a world government, possibly extend the authority of UN. Governments need to match the size of multinational corporations.

I don't think that really solves the problem. People are different, and societies have different collective values. That diversity is IMHO valuable, and in case, it's probably unavoidable. Trying to force everyone into the same template seems to me a Very Bad Idea.

I think we do much better with our current model, where each jurisdiction has its own legal and ethical norms, jurisdictions may reach multilateral agreements on areas of common interest, and anyone wanting to operate across jurisdictions needs to do so in a way that is compatible with everywhere they operate and any common agreements between those places. In this case, economic incentives for major multinationals to be able to operate across borders is, or at least should be, a compelling reason for national governments to accept their limitations and not try to exert influence beyond their borders in unsustainable ways.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#88
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"European Union legislation requires companies to protect the personal information of EU citizens" It's the law. What's more, it's a good law. I am concerned that they broke it, and seem to have tried to hide this.

The Patriot Act seems to trump EU law in many cases, as security fears oft trump privacy concerns. It's a good discussion to be had for sure, am I'm sure EU parliament members will debate it in length: They don't seem to have tried to hide anything. From another report: http://www.h-online.com/security/news/item/Google-also-passe... The previous Microsoft admission that sparked this line of questioning: http://www.h-…

that report just cites the link you gave in your original comment.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#89
post #3

Corporations based and operating in the US are subject to the PATRIOT Act, it's a shitty law but it's still the law. At least they are transparent about it. Edit: here is the article in question: http://www.wiwo.de/politik-weltwirtschaft/google-server-in-e... They asked if their EU based dataceters are also subject to US warrants and they answered that they are.

I don't have any expertise in this area, but the first comment on that article claims that the quote they have wasn't given specifically to that paper, and the original quote is kind of dodgy:

"As a law abiding company, we comply with valid legal process, and that - as for any US based company - means the data stored outside of the U.S. may be subject to lawful access by the U.S. government. That said, we are committed to protecting user privacy when faced with law enforcement requests. We have a long track record of advocating on behalf of user privacy in the face of such requests and we scrutinize requests carefully to ensure that they adhere to both the letter and the spirit of the law before complying."

From that, it sounds like the data is subject to subpoena, but it would be nice to not have speculation three layers thick on this point and just get a straight answer.

Re: Google Admits Handing over European User Data to US Intelligence Agencies

#90
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only legal option is to creat a world government, possibly extend the authority of UN. Governments need to match the size of multinational corporations.

I don't think that really solves the problem. People are different, and societies have different collective values. That diversity is IMHO valuable, and in case, it's probably unavoidable. Trying to force everyone into the same template seems to me a Very Bad Idea. I think we do much better with our current model, where each jurisdiction has its own legal and ethical norms, jurisdictions may reach multilateral agreem…

>That diversity is IMHO valuable, and in case, it's probably unavoidable. Trying to force everyone into the same template seems to me a Very Bad Idea.

That's what the European Union is about.

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