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I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

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Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#51
Very small point about this story, regarding the true|false|mixture|satire options, specifically the satire option - good satire can almost be indistinguishable from proposed fact.

In other words, I daresay that people of less education and less experience reading (or where the article is written in a language which is not the reader's first language) would not realize it is satire.

This has happened many times where certain political groups have promoted Onion stories that appear to favor their policies - but which are clearly satire to some of us.

So even if the fact checkers could stay on top of the flood of misinformation, I expect there could be a minimal formula for getting content marked as Satire while still delivering false information to gullible/ignorant readers.

A problem too great (or late) to solve is the relative ignorance of many of the readers. These are also the people who vote in politicians who work directly against their needs. When a person can stand in a burning building and say, "We're sure glad we got our guy leading the government, because those other guys would have ruined everything we care about." No amount of fact checking can solve this mental problem.

Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#52

A few comments; - firstly, just because you can’t eradicate all fake news and misinformation does not make the effort “doomed” - you can’t get rid of all crime in the world either, or all disease, but you can still try and reduce it and it’s a worthy effort. - the writer conflates a bunch of things - they wants the algorithms to be open, transparent and opt-in. While that would be nice, I don’t think that’s required…

When you consider fakes just as the symptom of cognitive deficiencies and all you do is label these stories as why and where they are wrong, your impression of a doomed attempt seems quite understandable to me.

It would be much more helpful to explain and teach by example the underlying cognitive mechanism that tricked you in the first place.

An example. Alot of climate change "sceptics" repeat over and over again, that CO2 is just ~2% of earth atmosphere (doesn't matter if the number is correct or not) and they conclude that therefore CO2's effect on the climate is neglectable. This is wrong reasoning, you got tricked by a small number, but it appears right for a superficial look. (Following this logic, cyanide would be harmless too.)

The over and over (and over and over and over) repetition of that aspect is like a chain reaction you can only effectively stop by halting the underlying process. Otherwise some else fake news get spread next iteration.

Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That act of summarizing, of picking out which information is and is not important, is itself an act of journalism. Exactly, I'm totally with you. That is the essence of journalism I would even say. But that is where the job of the journalist ends, no sprinkling in of their own presuppositions.

It's not as clear-cut as you make it out to be. Sometimes, summarizing will change the whole meaning of the text. Journalists are not always equipped to determine what is important and what isn't (because they're not always subject matter experts, and don't have the budget to consult with one every time), and sometimes what's important to summarize will change based on your pre-disposed opinion. It's impossible for p…

It's hard or maybe impossible to do a perfect job here, but it often seems like the vast majority don't even try! A huge proportion of news stories are horribly and deliberately misleading on everything from the local to national level and on every topic from science to celebrities.

I'd like to be more specific than "a huge proportion" but it's hard because I've mostly read the more widely shared and thus sensationalist stories, which will have much bigger distortions on average.

Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To use that logic, we should also not have judges or a legal system Nobody wants or needs the media - even less social media - as proxy-judges of the information. Everbody just wants the information and judge it for themselves. That is because most of the time, fact-control becomes opinion-control and we see exactly this happening just before our eyes. Thus people on either side of the political spectrum will suppo…

> Everbody just wants the information and judge it for themselves People may say they want this, but manifestly do not. There is too much information. To illustrate: many people I know cared a great deal about whether the country was lied to about WMDs when we went to Iraq. As far as I know, zero of them have read the report by the Senate Intelligence Committee[0] but all were very glad to have the report summarized…

Note that some citizens genuinely do read at least parts of those reports and we would quite appreciate them being cited (with section headings etc) in news reports.

Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#55
post #46
post #13

Any “fact-checker” which is mandatory, is a censor in all but name.

teddyh rapes children. Are you going to censor me "in all but name" or allow the statement to stand on the record as a fact?

Is teddyh a mandatory fact checkers?

Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#56
This is approaching from the wrong angle. Trying to stop the tide of bullshit is futile without hundreds of thousands of "fact checkers", what's needed is teaching people good epistemological hygiene. How to read an article, how to respect quantification, what sort of things to be suspicious of, how to find out accurate information and when to withhold judgement.

Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#57

The main problem with many of these "fact checking" organizations and processes is that they often overstep their bounds. They work fine when they can source exact data and facts, e.g. a date, a number, the conclusion of a scientific study, the name of a person, and exact phrase that was said. But more often than not, they delve into opinion or judgement of vague or complex situations. This intermingling is not much…

Even the two examples you give which we would think would be easiest to fact check accurately, "the conclusion of a scientific study, the name of a person, and exact phrase that was said" are not always.

With the scientific studies, we see here on HN all the time how studies, viewed from various angles, can be contentious and not easy to decide with certainty about.

And surprisingly, quotes and "what I saw" situations often do get remembered differently for two people observing the same event. There's a lot of room here for some seemingly simple facts to be very difficult to know the actual fact of.

Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#58

A few comments; - firstly, just because you can’t eradicate all fake news and misinformation does not make the effort “doomed” - you can’t get rid of all crime in the world either, or all disease, but you can still try and reduce it and it’s a worthy effort. - the writer conflates a bunch of things - they wants the algorithms to be open, transparent and opt-in. While that would be nice, I don’t think that’s required…

> the writer conflates a bunch of things - they wants the algorithms to be open, transparent and opt-in. While that would be nice, I don’t think that’s required to eliminate misinformation (nor will it solve it)

"Required" might be a strong word, but "would be nice" is too weak, IMO.

I suppose it depends on what you see as the goals and purpose of moderation. I've seen a lot of agreement about SM requiring moderation, while totally disagreeing about what, why and to what end.

If fairness s concern, nevermind freedom, openness is a factor. Also, while he doesn't state it... the author is concerned about moderating facebook, not just facebook users. That makes some sense, from where he's sat.

The job is to "prevent the spread of misinformation" on FB, especially headline stuff: political/electoral misinformation, covid related, etc.^ He sees this stuff repeatedly go viral... and that logically leads to the platform and recommendation algorithm itself. Applying moderation after may not (in his view) be enough to do the job. Opaqueness probably makes it as hard for moderation teams to understand the nuances as it does for us.

Maybe openness and free software adjacent principles are not the only way to approach an actual solution, but most of the best ideas are not unrelated. If you think of bullshit propaganda going viral as a bug, transparency is definitely relevant.

Opt-in & respecting user wishes generally, are also part of a lot of hypothetical solutions. One of the ways pre-FB social media dynamics was various "bad behaviour" rooms. HN works as an example. You can choose to view dead comments. Most choose not to. Still, that tiny piece of transparency and user choice moderates some of the moderation's weaknesses.

I don't think you can say anything definitively, but there are logical links between FB's control oriented model and the problems moderators are tasked with fixing.

^He cites Myanmar as an example. This is in a language & culture that FB don't speak. They really don't know what is going on, and I think it's likely they heard about FB's role in causing major violence against a minority from a third party. COmpare that to the level of

Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#59

This is approaching from the wrong angle. Trying to stop the tide of bullshit is futile without hundreds of thousands of "fact checkers", what's needed is teaching people good epistemological hygiene. How to read an article, how to respect quantification, what sort of things to be suspicious of, how to find out accurate information and when to withhold judgement.

> what's needed is teaching people good epistemological hygiene. How to read an article, how to respect quantification, what sort of things to be suspicious of, how to find out accurate information and when to withhold judgement.

Good luck trying to teach a >20 year old this.

When you teach children that the scientific method is useless, logic is not necessary, and therefore Creationism is fine, repairing that "damage" once Children are older is pretty much impossible.

You have "habituated" them to the lie, just in the exact same way that "child soldiers" and "terrorist" get habituated. Part of the habituation process is making them personally invested on the lie, e.g., for a child soldier or a terrorist that's their first "kill". From that moment on, either they are right, or they are a horrible human being.

Same here, it might start with Creationism, then shaming someone for wanting an abortion, etc. One of these is going to be their first "kill" moment, their point of no return, and then the only way to "heal" is for them to discover that they are horrible human beings. Pretty much impossible to heal in practice.

In the exact same way that this is not the child soldiers fault, it is not the fault of children that have been educated their way to end up raiding the capitol. I'd go as far that it is not the fault of these children to even then lobby as adults for the process to continue, for more creationism, for more extremism, etc.

Maybe at some point someone in the USA was at fault for allowing this to happen. But at this point I think that a big part of the population particularly in central america are just victims of the system. They were raised into what they are now, and lots of psychological hard work would be required to "fix" any single one of them.

Simplifying this issue to "this people are just dumb, and facebook should send them a link to a page that teaches them how to read" would be as effective as trying to address terrorism by repeating on TV that killing people is bad.

Re: I Was a Facebook Fact-Checker (2019)

#60

This is approaching from the wrong angle. Trying to stop the tide of bullshit is futile without hundreds of thousands of "fact checkers", what's needed is teaching people good epistemological hygiene. How to read an article, how to respect quantification, what sort of things to be suspicious of, how to find out accurate information and when to withhold judgement.

>> what's needed is teaching people good epistemological hygiene.

What's needed of who? I agree that epistemological hygiene is good, but how is FB supposed to tackle this. Even the education system may have trouble, and even if they don't it will take a generation.

Problems need to be framed in ways that don't avoid dealing with them.

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