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Python 3.11

docs.python.org

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Re: Python 3.11

#51

Post by Godel_unicode »

ArchD wrote: post #7
warent wrote: post #6

just spent about 4 hrs getting Python 2 and pip setup on my Mac. Any time I have the misfortune of needing to use python I get cold sweats at the thought of the environment stuff. Why is this still such a massive problem?

No such problems on Linux, which is free and open-source. I think 'open-source' is the key.

I think you mean you don't have such problems on Linux, there are plenty of people who trip over the fact that the default python on RHELhttps://www.ibm.com/support/pages/work-around-frustrating-py...

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/468620/how-to-chang...

Re: Python 3.11

#52

Post by RheingoldRiver »

arathore wrote: post #40

> When printing tracebacks, the interpreter will now point to the exact expression that caused the error instead of just the line. For example: Traceback (most recent call last): File "distance.py", line 11, in print(manhattan_distance(p1, p2)) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ File "distance.py", line 6, in manhattan_distance return abs(point_1.x - point_2.x) + abs(point_1.y - point_2.y) ^^^^^^^^^ AttributeError: 'NoneType…

This is an INCREDIBLE improvement. I'm so excited for it for myself, and I think it will also do wonders for getting new programmers comfortable with the language. Seeing exactly where in the line your error is, is amazing! IMO this 100% cements Python as the single most newbie-friendly language, if there was any question before now (or at least, before the release of 3.11).

Re: Python 3.11

#53

Post by RheingoldRiver »

cdrini wrote: post #49
warent wrote: post #6

just spent about 4 hrs getting Python 2 and pip setup on my Mac. Any time I have the misfortune of needing to use python I get cold sweats at the thought of the environment stuff. Why is this still such a massive problem?

Folks have given a number of good options here, but I thought I'd mention some other ones in case they're helpful for your use case. 1) docker! If you only plan on tinkering with something and don't want to install a bunch of random things on your machine, this command will start a python 2 image with access to the current directory: `docker run --rm -it -v "$PWD:/app" python:2.7 bash` (IIRC, on my phone atm!) (Windo…

I don't think Pycharm will install different versions for you, but if you have multiple versions installed, it is indeed super easy to switch between them. Though if you have a ton of packages you'll have to reinstall them all for the right version, and if you're dealing with lots of venvs + system installs, you have to make sure to choose the right thing from the dropdown and you might get somewhat lost and confused if you don't know what you're doing.

The right menu is File -> Settings -> Project: -> Project Interpreter, and then you pick whatever you want by Python Interpreter.

In Windows I use Chocolatey to manage Python versions, in Mac idk though.

Re: Python 3.11

#54

Post by EmilStenstrom »

eink-reader-32 wrote: post #50

I noticed on https://www.python.org/downloads/ I only see up to python 3.9. Where is 3.10 and 3.11 downloads? whats the best way to install python?

3.10 will be released tomorrow. 3.11 is still very much work in progress and is expected to drop in 2022.

Re: Python 3.11

#55

Post by lacker »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #33
NelsonMinar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using Python 2 is a big part of the problem. Modern Python 3 is a lot nicer. Also you're much better off if each Python project has its own virtual environment using the venv module.

While I also quirked an eyebrow at the exact version, is 3 better at package management & environments?

It's still a mess, honestly. They tried to standardize on venv but since it doesn't deal well with Python libraries that depend on non-Python components, conda is still better for many purposes.

Re: Python 3.11

#56

Post by lacker »

wenc wrote: post #24
warent wrote: post #6

just spent about 4 hrs getting Python 2 and pip setup on my Mac. Any time I have the misfortune of needing to use python I get cold sweats at the thought of the environment stuff. Why is this still such a massive problem?

I use the Anaconda distribution. I can create environments containing any version of Python, like this: conda create -n myEnv python=2.7 conda activate myEnv I think the problem is that unless someone already knew Python, they probably wouldn't understand environments, so their first thought would be to somehow install another version of Python and replace the system Python, or to use a switcher to switch between ver…

I mean, conda is installing another version of Python, and it provides a switcher to switch between environments. Conda and rvm are very similar to use.

Re: Python 3.11

#57

Post by shakna »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #9
warent wrote: post #6

just spent about 4 hrs getting Python 2 and pip setup on my Mac. Any time I have the misfortune of needing to use python I get cold sweats at the thought of the environment stuff. Why is this still such a massive problem?

Interesting, I don’t use Python much anymore, but my project setup was always something like: virtualenv -p interpreter venv source venv/bin/activate pip install . . . These days, I just use nix

Replace the first line with

    python3 -m venv venv
And you have the current state of things.

Re: Python 3.11

#58

Post by anakaine »

lacker wrote: post #55
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I also quirked an eyebrow at the exact version, is 3 better at package management & environments?

It's still a mess, honestly. They tried to standardize on venv but since it doesn't deal well with Python libraries that depend on non-Python components, conda is still better for many purposes.

Except when Conda plays hard to get, like in any corporate environment with connection inspection, custom root CAs, or not quite admin privileges. Then Conda is an absolute dog and hard to work with, yet regular old python is fine.

Re: Python 3.11

#60

Post by lmm »

iamcreasy wrote: post #32
lmm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Python has a low barrier to entry and is a popular first language, so most users don't realise how bad it is. 2. Python was originally popular with old-school sysadmins, Debian types, and a lot of its package management is based around that philosophy of carefully hand-tended servers shared by multiple users.

Care to elaborate on what is bad? How bad are they compared to other languages? (Assuming you are always accepting some tradeoffs when moving from one eco system to another)

Off the top of my head:

- What you get when you import a library depends on state that's scattered all over the system: system-managed packages, pip-managed system-global packages, pip-managed per-user packages, which virtualenv is currently active, which directory you're currently in, which directory the program you're running is in, whatever it is that conda does....

- There's no concept of reproducible builds or dependency pinning. There's "pip freeze" but that's a one-time operation that you can't then reverse, so it's only usable for leaf applications. If you're developing a library, you'd better get used to having your transitive dependencies changed on you all the time. And since the whole ecosystem is built that way, even if you use some tool that lets you make stable releases of your library, that doesn't help you develop at all.

- Virtualenvs are stateful and attached to whatever terminal you were in at the time. This interacts hilariously with the previous point: if you accidentally run "cd myproject && pip install -r requirements.txt" in the wrong terminal, you permanently, irreversibly fuck up that virtualenv. All you can do is wipe it out and try to recreate it - but, per the previous point, it probably won't come out the same as before.

- You're supposed to use pip to manage which python version each project is using. But you're supposed to use the installer for it that's distributed with the python runtime. But only certain versions of the python runtime...

- There's only one global repository. If you want to build some libraries and reuse them the same way you'd use a normal library dependency, you have to publish them to the global PyPi. I think there might be an expensive service that works around this, but there's no repository program that you can just spin up on your own servers.

It's really a lot worse than other languages. If you build a real system (like, a couple of libraries and applications) in another language (not, like, C/C++ - but even Perl or TCL will prove the point) and then come back to Python, you'll find yourself hating it all the time.

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