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Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

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Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#41

Post by miracle2k »

davidgerard wrote: post #27
lottin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't bitcoin centrally controlled though? Bitcoin's monetary policy is programmed into the bitcoin software. This means whoever writes (or wrote) the software controls the policy.

Bitcoin mining has also been centralised since about 2014 - three entities are known to control >50% of all mining, and there's no way of knowing how many of the other mining entities they have effective control over. "Decentralised" is a phantasm.

Yes, similar to how the US presidential election is centrally controlled because only 51 entities are voting.

Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#42

Post by shimonabi »

redka wrote: post #38

As usual, here on HN, any time something is posted that relates to cryptocurrencies the discussion gets filled with negativity and even, seemingly unprovoked, outright hostility toward the idea. Overall HN (in my opinion) has a very good quality of discussion and I often read the comments before opening a link or even just for the sake of it. Nevertheless when it comes to cryptocurrencies that assumption goes out the…

Maybe smart people are overrepresented on HN. Most of the crypto-bros I know haven't written a single line of code in their life.

Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#43

Post by bart_spoon »

drclau wrote: post #31
EdwardDiego wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptocurrency really feels like a solution desperately in need of a problem.

The problem to be solved was found some time ago: shifting money from the poor to the rich.

Bitcoin certainly isn’t a solution to this. Any inflationary currency like Bitcoin favors the wealthy, as existing wealth becomes more valuable.

Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#44

Post by ilammy »

redka wrote: post #38

As usual, here on HN, any time something is posted that relates to cryptocurrencies the discussion gets filled with negativity and even, seemingly unprovoked, outright hostility toward the idea. Overall HN (in my opinion) has a very good quality of discussion and I often read the comments before opening a link or even just for the sake of it. Nevertheless when it comes to cryptocurrencies that assumption goes out the…

Not everyone registered is posting on every topic. Not everyone having an opinion is posting in the topic they read.

Making unsubstantiated claims is easier than laying down concrete arguments.

You quickly run out of pearls to throw before the swine.

“Venting” is more socially acceptable than “preaching”.

And there is a matter of customs and culture: people see that badmouthing happens more often than singing praises, and so the cycle continues. HN is evidently the place where you don’t often see positive discussions of the merits on the front page, so that’s exactly what you see, and even if you have something to say you’d rather keep your mouth shut. But you see slandering comments in every topic so if you want to leave another then by all means, feel right at home.

All of this does not even take into account whether there are any technical merits worthy of continued discussion and fervent defense, or everything on this particular topic has been said already and perceived as general knowledge among the literate.

Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#45

Post by jsemrau »

bradwood wrote: post #39
jsemrau wrote: post #15

Not yet. The on and off-ramps are still way too complicated. Getting an account with one of the established banks (a.k.a exchanges) is painful. AML/KYC takes weeks, the user interface is a mess, every turn costs you "fees", trading is dominated by whales when they move their money around to pump some shit-err... alt-coin, and finally getting back into fiat so you can actually use all of the "in-game" currency is slow…

On and off ramps are predicated on the necessity to transfer fiat into and out of crypto. This (some would argue) is just an intermediary state before _everything_ is crypto. In El Salvador, there is no need to off-ramp fiat into BTC...

Yes, I'd hope that. At some point I'd like to buy milk with Banano's I earned from watching JungleTV.

Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#46

Post by 3np »

zinekeller wrote: post #40
3np wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I don't feel I'm expressing myself well here, but bear with me:) Something that tends to be underappreciated is the risk associated with contemporary mobile payments solutions. Both the individual and the local economy become incredibly reliant on a small number of private companies. For more well-off individuals who can spread their risk ad easily switch providers, this is much less of a practical risk and therefor…

> Cryptocurrencies (when done in a way that liberates the user as opposed to being wrapped in centralized fintech) break this dynamic completely. Now, tell me how to do this exactly ? (At least a general sketch?) Because I really think that this is really not a problem that can be seen with cryptocurrency, but rather with how societies work, which is hard to solve. I don't want to favour one or the other, but societa…

Maybe not “exactly” but for key management roughly something like the Ledger Nano X (has to come down 10x in price obv): Small separate device that can be used to sign transactions with. Can be used with smartphone wirelessly. This device should also work seamlessly for general 2FA and auth/identification, preferably usable with government services.

Apart from being sold directly to consumers, it could be issued by providers of banking services (lending or payments for example) to clients.

You would also have service providers offering key recovery services (could be shamired)

Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#47

Post by 5350-uiop-1130 »

jsemrau wrote: post #15

Not yet. The on and off-ramps are still way too complicated. Getting an account with one of the established banks (a.k.a exchanges) is painful. AML/KYC takes weeks, the user interface is a mess, every turn costs you "fees", trading is dominated by whales when they move their money around to pump some shit-err... alt-coin, and finally getting back into fiat so you can actually use all of the "in-game" currency is slow…

Yes, and in most cases you need a bank account or at least a debit card to buy crypto to begin with.

I'm long crypto but i think the argument of banking the unbanked is a bit contrived, much like the store of wealth narrative in the face of regular -20% "corrections".

It should be seen as a speculative investment and not really a currency. Perhaps stablecoins can serve that market eventually.

Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#48

Post by Joeboy »

bart_spoon wrote: post #43
drclau wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem to be solved was found some time ago: shifting money from the poor to the rich.

Bitcoin certainly isn’t a solution to this. Any inflationary currency like Bitcoin favors the wealthy, as existing wealth becomes more valuable.

That's the same as what they said, isn't it?

Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#49

Post by rich_sasha »

I think saying crypto is better than no bank [for the poor] is a bit like saying loan sharks are better than no loans.

In a literal sense that’s definitely true: having more options must be uniformly good, and sometimes you want these options for sure.

And yet no one says “yay loan sharks bring financial freedom”, more like “let’s fix poverty and lack of banking”.

On balance I think that if you cannot have a bank account then a crypto economy may well be better (but omg the transaction fees), but that shouldn’t be a blueprint for financial advancement.

Re: Cryptocurrency and the unbanked

#50

Post by zinekeller »

mrtksn wrote: post #36
zinekeller wrote: post #2

Eh, probably, but so can mobile banking solutions[1] that are popular in Africa. Unlike in, for example, Europe where mobile payments requires a (relatively fancy) phone, M-Pesa works even on basic phones, which you can't say about cryptocurrencies in general. This is not to dismiss them, of course, but "conventional" currency already has a solution for this, so unless you're advocating for decentralisation (which is…

There's other groups of people who have access to money and tech but lack access to banking: persecuted people, financially ruined people or people with irregular documents. 1) persecuted: For example, a religious cult grew to require power in the government in Turkey, clashed with the official government and even tried a military coup and failed. Following the coup, those with direct involvement to the coup went to…

You have good points here, and this reminds me of MasterCard getting giddy with pornographic transactions, even in areas where it is fully legal. However, I think that cryptocurrency will only solve 3) in your list.

For 1), they often seize everything, to the point that they seize computers and phones. Even if they are smart to have a backup, I'm pretty sure that they will try to hoover up anything and everything, even regular currency.

For 2), I think that this is a societal problem, really. In France (as an example), you are entitled to a bank account regardless of your status, that even means if you have been convicted of money laundering. On the flipside, and I am assuming to use cryptocurrencies like Monero which makes transaction tracking harder, if you are really wanted you could end up in situation that I described on 1).

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