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Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

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Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#601
post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, many countries have similar ideas. They all define them slightly differently. The americentric part is using the american legal term of art in an international context and assuming everyone just understands it, and that its a reasonable definition in context. The idea that minorities exist and should have some additional legal protection is not the aspect that is americentric.

My point is that I don't think it is using it as an American legal term, it's using it generically for the the broadly understood idea, a lot being common. At least that would be my assumption. They could hardly go out of their way to find a synonym not in use by any country, and then keep checking in case some country started using it and people started interpreting the document as using it in the sense of that coun…

Taken literally, its a referential term - "protected class" means a class protected by something (in usa typically a statute).

If they don't define the term, then surely they mean the american context - if not, who is protecting the class?

> If it said 'murder' or 'jaywalking' we wouldn't pick a country that uses those terms to interpret them in its legal sense, we'd just understand the broad sense of what they are anywhere

The difference is that these terms have widely agreed upon meanings. I know what jaywalking means regardless of country.

If i use the term protected class generically, who is included? Are we including the following groups:

- vetrens of us armed forces

- vetrens of non-usa armed forces

- political beliefs

- sexual orientation

- criminal conviction

If used generically, its impossible to know - some juridsictions say yes, some say no, in different contexts.

If the CoC was just using the term in an abstract way - to represent the abstract idea of a protected class, that would be fine. However they are not. They are using the term concretely. To understand the CoC you have to know the exact list of protected classes (or at least be able to identify if a specific trait creates membership or not).

Although i think this term is needlessly american, ultimately i'd be fine with it if they defined it. Not defining a term used almost exclusively in the usa kind of implies they mean it in its american sense.

> Again, that's not what it is. The legal protection is against discrimination based on your such as race or ethnicity. No matter whether the particular value in your case is held by the majority or a minority of people.

I should of said marginalized instead of minority perhaps. Although it varries depending on context, and region, affirmative action is often not considered to be in violation of these policies. So its more complex than that.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, many countries have similar ideas. They all define them slightly differently. The americentric part is using the american legal term of art in an international context and assuming everyone just understands it, and that its a reasonable definition in context. The idea that minorities exist and should have some additional legal protection is not the aspect that is americentric.

What term should they use then?

They should just list out the classes they care about or say the criteria that determines if a class is protected.

After all, anyone reading the document would need to know that info, why not make it obvious?

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#603
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an aside, I do not trust Rational Wiki to be a reliable source of information. Just one example: Their information about Alcoholics Anonymous’s effectiveness can charitably be described as a dumpster fire: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous (For example, they cite Brandsma 1980, which is a very outdated chestnut anti-AA polemics always bring out; the study is really old and its methodology was pret…

Rational Wiki is one of the most unintentionally funny and ridiculous sites, given the name. It's probably one of the least reliable and credible sources of information on the internet due to the juxtaposition, a la DPRK's name. It's Pathos Wiki. [Something something Conservapedia, stare into abyss, etc.] For some reason, it seems there are basically no nominally-neutral websites, forums, or news outlets that exist.…

> I mean it seems no one is even attempting to be neutral or even attempting to portray themselves as neutral. There is no concept of an anti-agenda agenda.

Wikipedia!

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#604
post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's what happens when a group of hyper-politicized people Well, maybe you work on undisciplined repositories or technical mailing lists, but most of us do not want to read people's jokes, funny, offensive, or not, when we are on a technical forum. It's really patronizing to say, "Oh, those primitive foreigners, we have to excuse them for posting offensive jokes on a technical forum."

> It's really patronizing to say, "Oh, those primitive foreigners, we have to excuse them for posting offensive jokes on a technical forum." That's patronizing because you're thinking of them as "primitive foreigners that posts offensive jokes", while you could think of them as "different people in a different culture that may not share every values with you". I don't understand why Americans are so afraid of swear w…

As a U.S. citizen, I do not endorse these people and approve of jokes. God forbid someone gets a chuckle once in awhile.

Let's call this problem what it really is. It's not the USA in general. It's leftist/politically correct politics in the west (primarily US and Canada though Euros have their share of it too) that get brought into everything. Outside of the internet and media, I only know a handful of people that endorse this crap.

And isn't the person that proposed this change not even a programmer? I looked and his (hope i dont misgender) github and didnt see a single original repo. If that's the case this is another problem of HR types that have nothing to do with the field pushing their crap.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#605
post #532
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in the name of being inclusive they're bullying someone who is not a native English speaker for not knowing the nuances of political correctness in a foreign culture? Cool cool.

I wouldn't call it "bullying" myself, but it does seem a bit like making a mountain out of a molehill. A big problem with these kind of discussions is that they tend to escalate quite fast. The battle lines are pre-drawn and anything that looks vaguely "sexist" or vaguely "cancel culture-y" will be shot at, no matter what the actual topic is. So this this (minor) incident becomes yet another front on the Great Cultur…

So, perhaps people should stop having good faith conversations with them because it has become apparent that you cant. How can you have a good faith convo with someone that is hell bent on undermining anything you say?

It's like trying to play a fair game with someone while they're cheating you the entire time. They don't want inclusivity or whatever else they say. They want control and will use whatever guise to get their way.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#606
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, wasn't she the instigator of "Opalgate"? Seems like she has a chip on her shoulder and this is her life's work (to go around bullying projects that don't have stringent enough CoCs into submission)

No, I was, but amazingly I haven't received any bullying or harassment for it. I wonder why.

At first I thought you were trolling but you're right, Coraline links to your Twitter post in the original Opalgate PR. I wouldn't really call what you did "instigation" though. You called out a post on Twitter you thought was BS, but that's way different than actually taking action to boot someone from a project, their career, etc. The former I would call "speech" or "an opinion", the latter I would call (esp. with Twitter mob backing) "bullying", "instigation", and/or "aggression".

If Coraline feels bullied or harrassed, my guess would be because people tend to react to bullying and aggression with bullying and aggression. "You reap what you sow", "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar", etc.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#607
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I was, but amazingly I haven't received any bullying or harassment for it. I wonder why.

At first I thought you were trolling but you're right, Coraline links to your Twitter post in the original Opalgate PR. I wouldn't really call what you did "instigation" though. You called out a post on Twitter you thought was BS, but that's way different than actually taking action to boot someone from a project, their career, etc. The former I would call "speech" or "an opinion", the latter I would call (esp. with…

How do you think Coraline saw this information? I spread it. She just took the brave step of actually trying to get that psycho off an important community project. All I did was gossip.

> If Coraline feels bullied or harrassed

She's gotten death threats. Doxed. Anything relating to codes of conduct will immediately bring her up, likely lying about the situation or her intentions. There is zero good faith discussion going on in this thread.

Her attempting to remove a toxic person from a community should not result in this hate, yet here you are, without all the facts, deciding she deserves it.

Just obliterate this community from the sky.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#608
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first I thought you were trolling but you're right, Coraline links to your Twitter post in the original Opalgate PR. I wouldn't really call what you did "instigation" though. You called out a post on Twitter you thought was BS, but that's way different than actually taking action to boot someone from a project, their career, etc. The former I would call "speech" or "an opinion", the latter I would call (esp. with…

How do you think Coraline saw this information? I spread it. She just took the brave step of actually trying to get that psycho off an important community project. All I did was gossip. > If Coraline feels bullied or harrassed She's gotten death threats. Doxed. Anything relating to codes of conduct will immediately bring her up, likely lying about the situation or her intentions. There is zero good faith discussion g…

I never said she "deserves" the hate that she gets, I speculated why she gets it. And my theory is that hate begets hate. On paper Coraline and her ilk have good values, many of which I agree with, but her combative style of proselyting her values has the side effect of enraging people and making them want to punch back.

If HN should be nuked from orbit, Twitter should be nuked from orbit a hundred fold. It's a breeding ground for hate and mob justice.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#609
post #406

I wish we responded to situations more proportionally. In this case, someone made a joke about women not liking to reveal their true age as they get older. It's a boring cliched joke. Something I've heard too many times in my life (and, most often from women). Is it sexist? I can see the argument. Is it professional to make such a joke on a ruby mailing list? I don't know, perhaps not. Does it warrant responses like…

Even if its uncool, I agree that that response is uncalled for. I feel like the "dunking" style of social media activism has really become mainstream in wildly inappropriate situations.

The joy gets sucked out of life when people go crazy about trying to shut down other people's jokes because of political correctness.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#610
post #587
post #406

I wish we responded to situations more proportionally. In this case, someone made a joke about women not liking to reveal their true age as they get older. It's a boring cliched joke. Something I've heard too many times in my life (and, most often from women). Is it sexist? I can see the argument. Is it professional to make such a joke on a ruby mailing list? I don't know, perhaps not. Does it warrant responses like…

The easiest, safest prediction to make is that all this is not going to end well. The only question is when the shoe drops, what form will it take?

As an employer, I would never hire someone who goes berserk and attacks others for perceived slights. Work is hard and it is much more fun when you can get along and joke with people you work with. If you feel like you are walking on eggshells all the time, no one has any fun.
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