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So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

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Re: So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

#61
I started reading the article and I appreciated the effort to convey the truth.

To be blunt, graduate humanities education should be treated as a dangerous life choice by default. While people making this choice are old enough and should intellectually "understand" that it is not going to be a lucrative path, I suspect they are mainly not equipped to really get what that means.

It's one thing to say "I am going to make less money than my orthodontist dad by going the humanities route" but it's not the same as viscerally understanding what it means to lack financial security, struggle to afford housing, vacations, etc. for the rest of your life. People who've never known poverty are not able to adequately understand what it means to condemn themselves to it.

I can't blame them. We all know "there's no money in humanities" the same way we know that "smoking's bad for you" but many of us don't really get what it means until real sickness/poverty explains it to us. This is proven by the relative over-representation of immigrants and first generation Americans in "practical" majors - people who have tasted poverty and struggle are likely to seek education that helps them avoid it.

This isn't limited to humanities. I always remember interviewing a "kid" who just got his PHD in chemistry at Case Western, realized there was nothing in chemistry he could/wanted to do, and was thus applying for entry level programming jobs, for which he would have been equally qualified 10 years earlier out of undergrad. The years he spent getting his MS and PHD shielded him from confronting reality, so now he was competing with kids almost 10 years younger, who were frankly more qualified, energetic and less in debt than he was. His graduate education was purely a waste of time and money.

Lest I seem anti-education, I have 2.5 masters degrees which served me very well. My wife is working on her second masters part time. My grandmother is a professor of Russian Literature, my grandfather was a professor of Mathematics, both my parents have masters' degrees and my cousin just defended his PhD in bioengineering. I see the benefits of education all around me, the only point is that we need to be thoughtful about it.

Placing a "tempting" grad school path in front of young people who aren't able to appreciate the implication of this choice is inherently going to lead to bad outcomes. The fact that it's possible for a person to be almost 30 and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt before they get any taste of their professional and personal life is crazy.

I spent some time in Israel and I think their model works much better. After high school, Israeli kids spend a few years in the army. This is a mainly "not fun, working experience" which exposes them to different career options. After the army, they are starved for fun so they spend 6-12 months backpacking India or South America. By the time they're back in Israel, they are more mature, got their "fun times" out of the way, and can think about what they want to get out of their college education. They don't look at college as a chance to have fun or find themselves since that's already done, but simply to enable them to have whatever career they desire. Sometimes that choice leads them to humanities and professorship, but they are making that choice more wisely.

My 2.5 graduate degrees were earned part time, starting a few years after I begun my career. This allowed me to be very thoughtful about what I want to do, and how to get an education that enabled that. The sum total of my advice is that it almost never makes sense to go into grad school directly out of college - unless you're very certain you want to be a doctor or a lawyer and you can't experience those fields without doctorate level education. For almost everything else, I strongly advise working at 2-3 years, experiencing the field and what the lifestyle of that field is, before you double-down the years and money on graduate work. I bet the decisions made 2-3 years later will be very often different and much better.

Re: So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

#62

> I had one course where the reading assignment for the first meeting (as in the first time we’d met as a class; we hadn’t even gone over the syllabus yet) was an 30-page article, and the entire text of Thucydides (which to be clear, is 548 pages in the Landmark translation. Aside from the Herculanean task of so much reading, Thucydides is one of the most difficult books I have ever read. The Landmark Translation too…

My wife has a history PhD. For her quals, her reading list was over 300 books (okay, some of these were just scholarly articles but the bulk were books). To prep, she read about 2 a day with one day off per week for six months. I just laugh when I compare my quals in CS, which was two tests each covering one textbook and a discussion of about 10 papers.

As a somewhat traditionalist physicist, and having grown up around university campuses, I love university libraries, and probably use them more than most scientists.

It was a bit of a revelation to me when my partner, a historian, casually complained about the limits on simultaneously checked out items being a nuisance. Until that point, I had always assumed that the usual limits for scholars at university libraries, often over 100 books, were just there to prevent extreme abuse, not with the expectation that anyone would regularly reach them.

Re: So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

#63

Some more nuggets of advice about grad school that I heard or came up with grad school friends over my decade (this mainly applying to engineering programs): 1. It’s almost always okay to quit. Quitting grad school is probably the smarter decision to make for the majority of grad students even if it’s two years before graduation. Your sanity and self worth are more important and surprisingly your career success follo…

The "Top-20 school" is bad advice for disciplines (like life sciences) where the expectation is that you will do a post-doc. There are post-docs at high profile institutions that came from lesser known schools, but had a great graduate career, pubs, and recommendations. In those fields, your post-doc is at least as important as your graduate school.

And most good life sciences departments do not offer a Masters program -- you get a masters if you decide at some point to stop pursuing the PhD. Most Master's programs cost money, and, at least in the life-sciences, you are better off working in the field (CS may be very different).

Re: So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

#64
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

88 being used by nazis predates 4chan, it's not a recent invention.

And 8 being an indication of good fortune predates Nazism.

Sure, but utterly irrelevant to the perception of 88 in the west today. Feel free to remain "skeptical" of that, but don't be surprised about people making that association.

Re: So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

#66

Some more nuggets of advice about grad school that I heard or came up with grad school friends over my decade (this mainly applying to engineering programs): 1. It’s almost always okay to quit. Quitting grad school is probably the smarter decision to make for the majority of grad students even if it’s two years before graduation. Your sanity and self worth are more important and surprisingly your career success follo…

The "Top-20 school" is bad advice for disciplines (like life sciences) where the expectation is that you will do a post-doc. There are post-docs at high profile institutions that came from lesser known schools, but had a great graduate career, pubs, and recommendations. In those fields, your post-doc is at least as important as your graduate school. And most good life sciences departments do not offer a Masters progr…

A Postdoc in a higher school than where you graduated is definitely par for course, but honestly it’s one more gambling step with at best 30% chance of netting you a good academic career. Your postdoc can still be underwhelming and also unless your PhD was stellar, you’re not betting a postdoc in a top lab anyway. The point is, given that you can’t explicitly choose the lab you want to do a PhD in, it’s just better to try and increase your chances by going to a top institution. If that’s already a hard proposition then the competition only keeps getting worse over time.

Re: So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

#67
post #24

Some more nuggets of advice about grad school that I heard or came up with grad school friends over my decade (this mainly applying to engineering programs): 1. It’s almost always okay to quit. Quitting grad school is probably the smarter decision to make for the majority of grad students even if it’s two years before graduation. Your sanity and self worth are more important and surprisingly your career success follo…

> Unless you’re trying to also use it as an immigration ticket to a 1st world country, if you can’t make it to a top school (top 20 for US, 5 elsewhere), don’t bother. Every qualified person I've heard talk about this said the opposite. "Top-20 school" isn't how professors or large industry labs evaluate a PhD, they will look at the advisor's reputation and the specific lab. > A masters would end up taking your caree…

For sure your advisor and pubs matter the most, but given you can choose your advisor directly at the least you want to go to a place where there are more “top advisors” aka a better institution. For sure some small places have great programs so I should definitely amend my suggestion to be a top-20 program. I myself did my PhD in UT southwestern which is just a med and grad school but in the top lists for just the PhD programs.

Re: So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

#68
post #17

Some more nuggets of advice about grad school that I heard or came up with grad school friends over my decade (this mainly applying to engineering programs): 1. It’s almost always okay to quit. Quitting grad school is probably the smarter decision to make for the majority of grad students even if it’s two years before graduation. Your sanity and self worth are more important and surprisingly your career success follo…

> It’s almost always okay to quit. Quitting grad school is probably the smarter decision to make for the majority of grad students even if it’s two years before graduation. Your sanity and self worth are more important and surprisingly your career success follows. This, although it depends on if you're in a terminal graduate program or you're going for your PhD. If you only have a year left to get your MA, try to sti…

Everyone joining a lower ranked institution thinks the same - they’ll simply go to one of the top labs! But then turns out so does everyone and a lot of times the top labs don’t even take that many students! This is like saying every med student can choose to become exactly what specialist they want.

Re: So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

#69
I'm a PhD student in CS at Caltech, and a lot of this resonated with me, especially the importance of finding the right advisor - and how random that process is. As the author says, your advisor has a lot of power over you and your career, and you really don't know in advance whether they will be a good fit. I was lucky; while my first advisor wasn't a good fit, I was able to switch to someone really great.

OTOH, some aspects of this post are crazy to me. We get paid $36k/year, way more than the $16k/year he mentioned. Also, our insurance is decent: mental health visits are 100% covered, and visits to other specialists (for example, a dermatologist) are just a $15 copay/visit. I think the insurance costs us just a few hundred dollars per term - annual costs are definitely less than $1k/year. Job prospects are very good - at least 15-20% of our PhD students eventually land a faculty job, often at top 20 institutions. Also, industry jobs pay well; my friends who did ML now make $300k/year straight out of their PhD. Finally, working 80 hours per week is definitely the exception. Most students I know have much more reasonable hours - in fact I think it's possible to do a decent PhD while putting in only 40 hours per week (on average; weeks before conference deadlines are intense!).

People often write about how painful the PhD process is. While it certainly can be awful, I think CS PhD programs at top schools provide much better living conditions and ROI than the humanities programs he describes.

Re: So you want to go to grad school (in the academic humanities)?

#70
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you’re trying to also use it as an immigration ticket to a 1st world country, if you can’t make it to a top school (top 20 for US, 5 elsewhere), don’t bother. Every qualified person I've heard talk about this said the opposite. "Top-20 school" isn't how professors or large industry labs evaluate a PhD, they will look at the advisor's reputation and the specific lab. > A masters would end up taking your caree…

For sure your advisor and pubs matter the most, but given you can choose your advisor directly at the least you want to go to a place where there are more “top advisors” aka a better institution. For sure some small places have great programs so I should definitely amend my suggestion to be a top-20 program. I myself did my PhD in UT southwestern which is just a med and grad school but in the top lists for just the P…

> at the least you want to go to a place where there are more “top advisors” aka a better institution

Yes, I forgot that I had a European point of view. Here we don't usually apply to graduate schools, we apply to specific positions where advisors and topics are already chosen, so the reputation of the school itself takes a backseat.

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