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Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

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Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#21

> “We were able to substitute alternative chips, and then write the firmware in a matter of weeks,” Musk said. “It’s not just a matter of swapping out a chip; you also have to rewrite the software.” https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-short...

To elaborate on this, the feature sets on these low level microcontrollers are no standardized. There is no common API for them to implement. Even chips coming from the same manufacturer will have different hardware capabilities, and although low-level drivers can abstract that way to a certain extent, there will always be differences.

The biggest challenge is when you need to update your firmware to use a microcontroller from a different manufacturer. Often times these chips are specifically chosen due to the set of hardware functionality they offer, and the firmware is written to take advantage of that from the start. The two are coupled.

Now you are forced to use a different chip, and the firmware that was written for a specific set of hardware now has to be modified for a new chip that may have a different feature set. Things fine print on how things like Analog to Digital converters becomes extremely important.

Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#22

When a Power PC is perfectly capable for a MARS rover missions, I dont see any reason why they must run Snapdragons. Unless some evil company, starts ditching physical controls or starts shoving Ads into Speedometer. And everyone follows. Im thankful that automobile tech didn’t discover electron yet. Imagine your speedometer consuming 200mb of ram.

> Im thankful that automobile tech didn’t discover electron yet.

Too late. I am well aware of a few car dashboard clients using it to their own detriment (imaging gluing CanBus I/O to electron.)

Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#23
Vehicle electronics have some real environmental challenges as well.

They have to function correctly

  * after they've been parked outdoors in Death Valley all day.

  * after they've been parked at -40 degrees for a long time.

  * when doused with slush containing road salt.

  * when their wiring harnesses deteriorate after a couple of decades of hard use.

  * at least for a few seconds after a catastrophic crash.
It takes the kind of risk-taking guts that Tesla exhibits to push new, better, electronic parts into test and production. Most car companies' executives, designers, and test engineers just don't want to take those risks.

Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#24
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM M family cores can run each other's code more or less. Only the libraries for I/O need to be rewritten. In some cases, there are drop in replacements (Gigadevices STM32 clones)

Are there even any ARM Cortex-M chips that are ASIL-B rated or better?

yes. ARM sells appropriate designs, and e.g. NXP offers some chips.

Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#25

> “We were able to substitute alternative chips, and then write the firmware in a matter of weeks,” Musk said. “It’s not just a matter of swapping out a chip; you also have to rewrite the software.” https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-short...

I feel like GM and Ford are at US Government and NASA size where getting any change through takes so long and so much middle management and red tape that it stretches to infinity. I’m sure Tesla is more agile than that. For better or worse sometimes…

The bigger the company, the more effort that’s needed to coordinate the parts. At some point one person can’t keep the whole in the head and has to lean on process. Tesla is small enough, and has a CEO that can keep everything in his head.

Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#26

> “We were able to substitute alternative chips, and then write the firmware in a matter of weeks,” Musk said. “It’s not just a matter of swapping out a chip; you also have to rewrite the software.” https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-short...

I get that what Musk quoted is not a trivial task, and if accurate, is probably much quicker than OEMs and Big Auto could do since Tesla is presumably much better at software.

The article quotes Intel at 16nm, which is, what, 10 years from cutting edge process node? At this point mature OEMs and Big Auto should have been on a refresh process to auto-migrate forward the chips. The semiconductor industry is 40-50 years old now. And new generations produce better chips (cost, power use, performance).

As other comments say, it smacks of laziness and lack of forecasting.

Tesla has other advantages, since they are so much more vertically integrated, they can probably manage migrations a lot more easily and centrally.

Big Auto is more like "Big assemble OEM parts". OEMs make all the components, Big Auto just wants to screw them into place and wire them together. It's part of why they suck at software that integrates things: They don't make any of the components, and a dozen different departments order them from a hundred suppliers, so getting interfaces/protocols/specs is a lot more time consuming than for Tesla.

Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#27
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM M family cores can run each other's code more or less. Only the libraries for I/O need to be rewritten. In some cases, there are drop in replacements (Gigadevices STM32 clones)

Are there even any ARM Cortex-M chips that are ASIL-B rated or better?

I think the Cortex-R chips are more targeted here- I think the V8-R chips are designed specifically for automotive use, so I assume they have appropriate ratings.

Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#28

> “We were able to substitute alternative chips, and then write the firmware in a matter of weeks,” Musk said. “It’s not just a matter of swapping out a chip; you also have to rewrite the software.” https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-short...

Weeks? This has been going on for almost 100 weeks

I assume the alternative chips are still in short supply, but less so than their first choice. Everyone else is looking for alternatives too.

Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#29

> “We were able to substitute alternative chips, and then write the firmware in a matter of weeks,” Musk said. “It’s not just a matter of swapping out a chip; you also have to rewrite the software.” https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-short...

As far as I can tell, Tesla plays fast and loose, treating their product like a manufacturer of consumer electronics and not a manufacturer of a dangerous and durable good. That obviously allows them to out-compete other auto manufacturers who are more aware of things like product liability.

See the Toyota accelerator-gate lawsuits. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932011_Toyota_vehic... :

> However, on October 24, 2013, a jury ruled against Toyota and found that unintended acceleration could have been caused due to deficiencies in the drive-by-wire throttle system or Electronic Throttle Control System (ETCS). Michael Barr of the Barr Group testified[30] that NASA had not been able to complete its examination of Toyota's ETCS and that Toyota did not follow best practices for real time life critical software, and that a single bit flip which can be caused by cosmic rays could cause unintended acceleration. As well, the run-time stack of the real-time operating system was not large enough and that it was possible for the stack to grow large enough to overwrite data that could cause unintended acceleration.[31][32] As a result, Toyota has entered into settlement talks with its plaintiffs.

Not following software best practices(i.e. ISO 26262) can expose your customers to unnecessary risk and leave your company vulnerable to lawsuits. Tesla may learn a very expensive lesson one day, or they may get lucky. Time will tell.

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Depending on the design of your system and software stack, switching SoCs can be anywhere from a massive effort to a simple recompilation. Even switching architectures could be trivial for some components(i.e. a UI written in HTML5 making REST API calls) or a nightmare for others(ECU, ABS or other real-time algorithm written to use bare metal modules on the SoC without an OS providing abstraction).

Re: Why Carmakers Can’t Transition to Newer Chips

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there even any ARM Cortex-M chips that are ASIL-B rated or better?

I think the Cortex-R chips are more targeted here- I think the V8-R chips are designed specifically for automotive use, so I assume they have appropriate ratings.

There are very lazy car companies which simply specify "automotive certified" car chips for everything, including MCUs running window switches. So, don't be surprised $20 ARM-R based MCUs being used to do something trivial like driving window motor.

I seen a few dashboard where there is an STM32 sitting connected to a single button, whose only duty is to register a key press, and burp something on the CanBus in response.

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