Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#241

Post by captainredbeard » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

snarfy wrote: post #216

jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

We would all need to basically live an Amish lifestyle. Not many will do it willingly. We really need some breakthrough like fusion.

Not interested in living like a serf because your religion tells you we need to sacrifice our lifestyles.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#242

Post by captainredbeard » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

Glench wrote: post #126

jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

> Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Luckily, a lot of the electrification parts of the climate bill will save Americans (and Australians) money without changing lifestyles — same size homes, cars, etc — just electrified. Electric machinery is just that much more efficient. Rewiring America and Rewiring Australia have the actual numbers: https://ww…

Only if you believe the phony math.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#243

Post by bryanlarsen » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

ramphastidae wrote: post #215

bryanlarsen wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most famous speeches in American history: "We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too." - Ken…

Come on. The US did not go to the moon because millions of Americans banded together and sacrificed around a single goal. The US went to the moon because the government felt capitalism was losing the PR battle to communism (Soviets) and so decided to pour money into it because they didn’t want to look bad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Race

A majority of Americans opposed the Apollo program. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/a-maj...

A majority of Americans support action on climate change.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#244

Post by perfunctory » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

garrickvanburen wrote: post #230

AussieWog93 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Desperate times call for desperate measures, and if the past year of climate catastrophes has shown us anything, it’s high time we act. This same rhetoric has been repeated for decades, and has continually received the same, hostile response from the public and politicians. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or untruthful, but alarmist statements like this are a demonstrably poor tool for rousing the public into action…

I agree. Alarmist rhetoric since at least the mid-1980s. We've made massive progress on environmental issues since then, but still the same alarmist rhetoric.

> We've made massive progress on environmental issues

Care to elaborate? Afaic, global CO2 emissions keep going up year after year.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#245

Post by sysihyk » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #174

hef19898 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there lies the difference that made my grandparents generation, albeit on the Allied side of WW2, the greatest generation. Not the willingness to go to war, that was enforced by drafts all over the globe back then. It was rather the total revamping of the economy, industry and society to support the war against the Nazis and Imperial Japanese. The UK went to rationing, and still people carried on in global strugg…

[flagged]

Back to boozefed please

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#246

Post by genewitch » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #234

Glench wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Luckily, a lot of the electrification parts of the climate bill will save Americans (and Australians) money without changing lifestyles — same size homes, cars, etc — just electrified. Electric machinery is just that much more efficient. Rewiring America and Rewiring Australia have the actual numbers: https://ww…

It's going to be hard to convince folks to replace their gas water heaters with electric heat pump models that cost ~3x more and save little to no cost annually. I'm not sure drilling for a heat pump would work in town here, and then the operating cost would still likely be more than gas (heating is at least 75% of my annual consumption). Figuring out how to eliminate those emissions is important, but it sure as hell…

Heat pump is how air conditioners work, a heat pump that heats works in reverse. There's no drilling needed, that would be geothermal.

Heat pump water heaters do save about half the cost in electricity over a conventional resistive-only water heater, and are optimal for places with basements, as they also dehumidify; or in warm climates, as they cool the air. So it's also useful for long term perishable storage like a root cellar would be, or in a laundry room. They do cost 3x as much, though.

Residential heat pumps for heating and cooling in the US is relatively new, and I've had nothing but problems with mine - so much so that I just received a full refund on the purchase price of my unit because of manufacturing "defects".

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#247

Post by aaomidi » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #235

It’s such a shame there are so many things going on in one giant bill. Who knows which part of it they oppose. Wouldn’t it be nice to work on and debate one issue at a time.

It would. But then you'd need 60 votes because we refuse to get rid of the filibuster.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#248

Post by Glench » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #234

Glench wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Luckily, a lot of the electrification parts of the climate bill will save Americans (and Australians) money without changing lifestyles — same size homes, cars, etc — just electrified. Electric machinery is just that much more efficient. Rewiring America and Rewiring Australia have the actual numbers: https://ww…

It's going to be hard to convince folks to replace their gas water heaters with electric heat pump models that cost ~3x more and save little to no cost annually. I'm not sure drilling for a heat pump would work in town here, and then the operating cost would still likely be more than gas (heating is at least 75% of my annual consumption). Figuring out how to eliminate those emissions is important, but it sure as hell…

I'm glad you laid out all the misconceptions about heat pumps!

> It's going to be hard to convince folks to replace their gas water heaters with electric heat pump models that cost ~3x more and save little to no cost annually.

Heat pumps are not "3x" as expensive and the price is coming down. Heat pumps are also a lot more efficient than any other heat source! Most households in the US would save ~$500/year on the energy bill if they switched to air-source heat pumps. Source: https://www.rewiringamerica.org/policy/bringing-infrastructu... This doesn't account for business use.

So it works like solar panels and electric cars — higher up front cost that saves you money over the long term. And if the government gave up-front rebates to make the costs the same or lower than furnaces then it's a no-brainer to use heat pumps.

>I'm not sure drilling for a heat pump would work in town here, and then the operating cost would still likely be more than gas (heating is at least 75% of my annual consumption).

Air source heat pumps are where it's at — waaay easier install than using ground-source or water-source. Air-source heat pumps used to not work in colder climates but now they do and have gotten a lot more efficient. These things are really awesome, a pretty good way to slash emissions while saving money over the long term.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#249

Post by jandrewrogers » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

treebot wrote: post #233

I don't think the climate problem can be solved without some form of authoritarianism. For most people, climate change does not affect their everyday lives. It primarily affects future generations, and non-humans. Caring about future generations is a form of long term thinking that most humans don't care for or are not capable of. Most people's long term thinking stops at their five year plan, or their kids' future.…

This assumes that humans understand the far future so well today that they can make decisions that will be effective and constructive in that context. Optionality has enormous value precisely because a lot can happen between now and then that no one can anticipate such that any decision made today will be ineffective or be actively damaging to good outcomes.

Imagine giving someone in 1920 authoritarian power to solve the problems of today, with virtually no information about the today.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#250

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

Glench wrote: post #248

maxerickson wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to be hard to convince folks to replace their gas water heaters with electric heat pump models that cost ~3x more and save little to no cost annually. I'm not sure drilling for a heat pump would work in town here, and then the operating cost would still likely be more than gas (heating is at least 75% of my annual consumption). Figuring out how to eliminate those emissions is important, but it sure as hell…

I'm glad you laid out all the misconceptions about heat pumps! > It's going to be hard to convince folks to replace their gas water heaters with electric heat pump models that cost ~3x more and save little to no cost annually. Heat pumps are not "3x" as expensive and the price is coming down. Heat pumps are also a lot more efficient than any other heat source! Most households in the US would save ~$500/year on the en…

Heat pump water heaters are not the same thing as heat pumps used for home heating. Please edit your comment to make it clear you misunderstood what I was talking about.

My expectation is that an air source heat pump would not work well here, at considerably higher cost than the gas furnace when installing is included in the comparison. Air source probably not working well is why I talked about drilling (each paragraph is a topic; water heating in the first and home heating in the second...).