The Software Industry Is Still the Problem • Hacker News Board

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#21

Post by tomhoward » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:15 PM UTC

The other types of engineering the author refers to that are subject to certification involve the physical safety of other people.

But still, plenty of software development roles are subject to professional liability, particularly where the work is linked to people’s physical safety. As a contractor or director of a company providing software services, I’ve been required to have professional indemnity and public liability insurance, and part of that involves verification that I’m sufficiently educated and experienced to be competent enough to mitigate the risk.

It doesn’t make sense for there to be industry-wide liability standards, as roles and risks vary so much, and certification comes at a huge cost. It’s absurd that the same standards of liability would apply to an aviation software job vs the part time IT guy at said sub-20-person office whose responsibilities are limited to setting up MS ActiveDirectory and keeping the printers running.

This is a rant about a non-problem.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#22

Post by nottorp » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:16 PM UTC

That's okay, no one will be able to afford software any more afterwards.

I suppose the likes of MS could get away with selling a bug free operating system for only 100k/seat. All the other cheap apps with less than millions of customers will simply vanish.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#23

Post by jacknews » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:16 PM UTC

On what basis should a developer be held liable for damage caused by software? Certainly a group of 'experts' could identify outright negligence.

But in engineering professions, the standards are well understood, and measurable. Software is not the same at all.

The whole argument appears spurious, and the arguer, sanctimonious.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#24

Post by austincheney » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:18 PM UTC

jgeada wrote: post #17

austincheney wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except that isn’t what software engineers largely do, we aren’t building the nth copy of the same building with a slightly different skin. That’s exactly what most developers do. There is far greater variation in boring bridges spanning small streams than most web applications and yet after more than 20 years we still can’t figure it out without some giant framework to do most of it for us.

Cost of replicating software is near zero, if you want the same thing as the next guy you can have it right now, no schedule risk. Except that isn’t what they want, they want the same “except for this, and with this extra, and change that…”. And we are back at the discover the spec stage again

You are overstating requirements gathering and then somehow confusing that for building anything technical. This only exemplifies the incompetence.

Bridge building is only more predictable because it’s more expensive. The same planning problems are still there but are worked out well in advance by people who aren’t so easily confused.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#25

Post by alecco » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:21 PM UTC

john37386 wrote: post #13

In Quebec/Canada there is this huge company called Trigone. They build all kind of big buildings here and their modus operandi was to create shell companies around Trigone. So the shell company would build the building and instantly bankrupt after. The people who bought part of the new building were stuck with all kind of problems and no way to fight back. The RBQ which is the agency in charge of making sure the rule…

I wonder what the rest of the construction companies think about all these regulations and what was the impact in costs and supply.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#26

Post by Nextgrid » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:22 PM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #9

7steps2much wrote: post #6

So that would mean I could f.e. Sue Microsoft if they push an update that breaks my whole network? ... I like this idea

Say hello to no updates ever.

If it means there's less temptation to change shit for the sake of change then I'm all for it.

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#27

Post by ivan_gammel » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:23 PM UTC

It is a great idea, but this is not going to work. The difference between construction and software engineering is the number of active users. If damage is made and people sue, your liability is limited by 1-10000 building occupants and visitors. No insurance company will take the risk of paying to 1M-1B active users of software.

And of course there is also a problem of implementation. Even with deadline in 10 years industry will not be able to certify majority of the engineers or develop an engineering process where licensed engineer in USA or EU can take responsibility for the code written by 10 engineers from another country with different standards (they can even be licensed, but those licenses won’t be recognized abroad).

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#28

Post by ipaddr » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:24 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #14

I view software as a form of literacy as opposed to engineering. Silicon chips - that's engineering. Codifying the process used by a large corporation to tell all its other systems a new joiner has arrived called "bob smith". That's writing something that other humans can read and can be executed by these engineered robots we have. While my heart is socialist, my head is market-driven. And I think a market solution i…

A developer is more of a writer crafting abstract concepts into flow. Build a house is physical an unrelated

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#29

Post by Jensson » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:25 PM UTC

Banks and financial entities are the ones that have the hardest government regulations, including how they write software. Regulating software engineers would just make the rest of the industry look more like those, I wouldn't call that an improvement. The problem is that we currently don't know how to properly regulate software engineering to get good results. Regulations doesn't even seem to protect against vulnerabilities, so why even bother until we understand better how to regulate it?

Re: The Software Industry Is Still the Problem

#30

Post by ClumsyPilot » Sat, Oct 02, 2021, 12:25 PM UTC

jgeada wrote: post #17

austincheney wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except that isn’t what software engineers largely do, we aren’t building the nth copy of the same building with a slightly different skin. That’s exactly what most developers do. There is far greater variation in boring bridges spanning small streams than most web applications and yet after more than 20 years we still can’t figure it out without some giant framework to do most of it for us.

Cost of replicating software is near zero, if you want the same thing as the next guy you can have it right now, no schedule risk. Except that isn’t what they want, they want the same “except for this, and with this extra, and change that…”. And we are back at the discover the spec stage again

We know mate, you are preaching to the quer. His point is you cannot exactly replicate a bridge either even if you've got an identical one 300 meters away - the river twists and turns, soil conditions differ, foundations may be different, etc.

You never get to 'copy-paste' anything more conplicated than a shed ir a single-story house