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Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#51

Post by wyre »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #35
MikeTheGreat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible that United States engineers still do this... but software "engineering" is famously (and self-deprecating-ly) not really "real engineering". I say this as someone who programs, teaches programming/computer science, and has worked professionally as a software development engineer - the comment isn't made to denigrate anyone, but because software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professiona…

> software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professional credentialing that "real" engineering (e.g., civil engineering) apparently does have Yeah and I hope it stays that way. Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it. > Does anyone have any information about how effective such training / indoctrination is in preventing bad situati…

> If society finds they're causing harm, it will hold them accountable for it.

Our society does a really bad job at holding people accountable for the harm they do. What makes you think it would be any different for software?

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#52

Post by hansel_der »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #35
MikeTheGreat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible that United States engineers still do this... but software "engineering" is famously (and self-deprecating-ly) not really "real engineering". I say this as someone who programs, teaches programming/computer science, and has worked professionally as a software development engineer - the comment isn't made to denigrate anyone, but because software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professiona…

> software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professional credentialing that "real" engineering (e.g., civil engineering) apparently does have Yeah and I hope it stays that way. Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it. > Does anyone have any information about how effective such training / indoctrination is in preventing bad situati…

> Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it.

i don't think so because as you said:

> It's about legal responsibility and liability. Make professional programmers directly responsible for the code they get paid to write.

we urgently need liability for for-profit software in order to stop softwares race to the bottom.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#53

Post by cblconfederate »

We don't even need clinical reporting to tell that instagram has a bad effect on teens. Just observe a teenager of your family to see the values that are being taught through it. Is this how you want the next generation to be?

Facebook is such a terrible human manipulation company, and it has always been, and it's just sad to see the support it gets among technologists. Zuck doesn't strike me as particularly deep thinker (judging from his podcasts) to be able to steer his behavioral experiment to good, nor does he seem particularly well educated tbh. Even people who think they are doing good by being in the company (Clegg, Lecun) they are not helping, they re legitimizing a train wreck . I just hope people get bored and leave the behavioral treadmill before it s too late.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#54

Post by strogonoff »

ecf wrote: post #46
tablespoon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good thread here that provides a counter-balance. https://twitter.com/nireyal/status/1443882540868063241?s=21 By the author of Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nir_Eyal : > In 2014 Eyal published his first book, Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products, which became a Wall Street Journal best seller.[12][13] The title reflects Eyal's idea of the "hooked model", which ai…

The person writes a book about hijacking human psychology for more clicks and then goes on to state how it’s our responsibility to control our use. What does he want us to do, re-wire our brains on demand?

Any given platform in Big Social has millions it can throw on tuning its GUI and algorithms to increase engagement—and they do, seeing as that directly translates into advertising revenue. Then, each user has to face all of this machinery alone, often exhausted and/or sleepy, at home, defences lowered. I think it’s wishful thinking to expect majority of users to be able to stay vigilant at all times.

Neither do I think we should “regulate habit-forming technologies”, though. That really smells of addressing a symptom and of government micro-management. Sure, we can try regulating those behemoths into acting altruistically, pass laws, fund departments dedicated to monitoring of habit-forming technology usage—but inevitably lawmakers will be lobbied by big tech, departments will be understaffed, regulations wouldn’t keep up with the new tech, loopholes will be found and exploited, corruption will occur, and this all will drag on… while the business model would find its way.

Which I think is the root cause: the business model. It should never have been possible at such scale. Any platform this size that survives off advertisement money either exploits its users, loses to the next competitor that does, or—in what’s possibly the worst outcome—becomes a strongly government-regulated (and by implication government-approved) almost-monopoly. The stark misalignment of the interests, unique to this industry, effectively makes the purported service provider (can it even be called that if the service is free, though?) an adversary from end user’s frame of reference.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#55

Post by heurisko »

hansel_der wrote: post #52
matheusmoreira wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professional credentialing that "real" engineering (e.g., civil engineering) apparently does have Yeah and I hope it stays that way. Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it. > Does anyone have any information about how effective such training / indoctrination is in preventing bad situati…

> Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it. i don't think so because as you said: > It's about legal responsibility and liability. Make professional programmers directly responsible for the code they get paid to write. we urgently need liability for for-profit software in order to stop softwares race to the bottom.

My company has liability insurance.

I'm indirectly liable, in that I can lose my job, however.

If I were a contractor, I would also buy liability insurance.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#56

Post by Hammershaft »

tablespoon wrote: post #18

> Facebook annotated the reports, appearing to downplay the results. Next to one slide in the research that said “teens who struggle with mental health say Instagram makes it worse,” the company added that the headline was imprecise. Instead, it wrote, “The headline should be clarified to be: ‘Teens who have lower life satisfaction more likely to say Instagram makes their mental health or the way they feel about them…

Holy shit this is some spin. The sentence takes up a bigger chunk of working memory, has multiple possible interpretations (of which only the worst interpretation correctly matches with the previous condensed statement), and no longer ends on a memorable or high impact phrase. every part of this statement has been mangled to grab less attention as a headline.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#57

Post by ahartmetz »

tomjen3 wrote: post #48
hkaly wrote: post #3

Irony is Facebook will not attract the talent it needs to work constructively on these unsolvable problems. It will attract thd clueless and the most ambitious. People who are ready to defend it for their own profit. Its a trap where the hole they are in just keeps growing deeper.

Investment banking has no problem attracting smart people. Smart people know that you gain nothing by sacrificing yourself for society. Even if you cared enough to say no, all that would happen is that Facebook would pay somebody else to work for them.

Smart is not the same as cynical. Being cynical doesn't require that much intelligence.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#58

Post by cinntaile »

MikeTheGreat wrote: post #13
jareklupinski wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers used to be offered an "Iron Ring" (or other similar token) to symbolize their responsibility to human welfare, even at the cost of personal achievement/merit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(

It's possible that United States engineers still do this... but software "engineering" is famously (and self-deprecating-ly) not really "real engineering". I say this as someone who programs, teaches programming/computer science, and has worked professionally as a software development engineer - the comment isn't made to denigrate anyone, but because software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professiona…

In Europe protected software engineering titles definitely exist as a sibling comment already pointed out. This only means you can't call yourself that, it doesn't mean you can't do that kind of work. From that perspective it might differ from civil engineering, but the distinction is likely not clear cut there either. Maybe only the guy signing off on the bridge's technical capabilities has to have the degree while the rest of the group that does the work doesn't need the degree.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#59

Post by jobigoud »

tomjen3 wrote: post #48
hkaly wrote: post #3

Irony is Facebook will not attract the talent it needs to work constructively on these unsolvable problems. It will attract thd clueless and the most ambitious. People who are ready to defend it for their own profit. Its a trap where the hole they are in just keeps growing deeper.

Investment banking has no problem attracting smart people. Smart people know that you gain nothing by sacrificing yourself for society. Even if you cared enough to say no, all that would happen is that Facebook would pay somebody else to work for them.

> Smart people know that you gain nothing by sacrificing yourself for society. Even if you cared enough to say no, all that would happen is that Facebook would pay somebody else to work for them.

Nothing? Not even a clear conscience?

The "but someone else will do it" argument is used to justify so many wrong doings… We hear it all the time about fighting climate change, building unethical weapons, etc.

You also have the choice to not personally actively contribute to whatever unethical thing is being discussed. It's a circular game theory problem, that "other person that will do it anyway" might also be justifying it because they think you would do it if they didn't.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#60

Post by hansel_der »

heurisko wrote: post #55
hansel_der wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine needing a license to write software. It would mean the end of free and open source software as we know it. i don't think so because as you said: > It's about legal responsibility and liability. Make professional programmers directly responsible for the code they get paid to write. we urgently need liability for for-profit software in order to stop softwares race to the bottom.

My company has liability insurance. I'm indirectly liable, in that I can lose my job, however. If I were a contractor, I would also buy liability insurance.

this!

software quality is not some kind of "force of nature" or "accident" but a direct result of cutting corners/costs.

insurance for beeing lazy will not help.

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