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Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#61

Post by perryizgr8 »

wk_end wrote: post #32
perryizgr8 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where’s the inconvenience? I don't want to buy a new electric car. I have a perfectly working petrol car. Why should I subsidize some rich guy's fancy new electric toy?

Because the rest of us are subsidizing the externality of the destruction your petrol car is wreaking on the environment. ...also, given that you're calling it a "petrol" car - a Briticism - do you even live in the US? If not, you won't be the one subsidizing it in case this bill comes to pass anyway.

I don't live in the US, but I will still be subsidizing it. I work for an American corp. If the customers and owners of the company are paying more tax to Uncle Sam, they're gonna be paying less salary to me.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#62

Post by cm2187 »

Mirioron wrote: post #49
aerosmile wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never heard this particular angle on this bill, and would hope that it's wrong. Can someone confirm/deny with some references?

This is the funny part, isn't it? The article talks about opposition to a bill but doesn't clearly name the bill or even explain its actual contents. The closest it gets is a link to another article that talks about two bills - a social policy bill and an infrastructure bill. One would think that an article in 2021 of a bill or a proposed bill could have a direct reference (preferably a link) to the document in quest…

And the reason why they are bulked into a single bill is to utilise the budget reconciliation procedure which bypasses the filibuster.

I think the filibuster has some merit. If you want to do something controversial (to the point that the opponents are willing to do the physical effort of making speeches 24h a day to stop it), there must be a strong majority of 60%, not just 50%. But there must be some sort of cost to filibusting.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#63

Post by Aunche »

hannob wrote: post #25
Guthur wrote: post #2

This article, per usual, is creating a completely false narrative. Just by opposing a particular bill that is ostensibly aimed at controlling the climate does not mean you are opposed to all actions aligned with that bills outward goals.

"We're not in principle against stopping climate change, we're just against every specific measure proposed to counter climate change." Sorry, I'm really tired of hearing these arguments.

I have an alternative $3.5 trillion climate bill. It's to spend $2.5 trillion dollars on purchasing carbon credits and spend $1 trillion as a paycheck for me for coming up with this brilliant bill. Don't agree? I guess you're just against saving the planet.

In all seriousness, I think that some of the proposals are even more handwavy about how they would decrease emissions than carbon credits. I also wouldn't be surprised if essentially $1 trillion will be spent pandering to the politicians' base rather than doing good for the nation. It's not too different from spending the money on yourself.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#64

Post by secondaryacct »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #6

The Build Back Better bill (or reconciliation bill) is the only real climate legislation that will plausibly be signed into law in the United States in the 2020s. It offers a meaningful path forward for the US to curb its carbon emissions. Opposing it means you oppose doing anything about mitigating the climate crisis within the United States from a federal legislative perspective within a timeframe where we can reas…

I dont if it s revenue neutral if it means being absolutely not neutral on the people and groups contributing most to society's finances.

If that s the case then I agree they have a right to complain, if just on the fact nobody's made responsible but them for something that is everybody's fault.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#65

Post by SCUSKU »

hef19898 wrote: post #59
jay_kyburz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans (and Australians) will never accept any changes that negatively impact their lives or wallets. Especially when the consequences of climate change are not clear and present. As democracies, we will simply vote out any government that asks us to change our ways. I think Covid19 demonstrates how resistant people are to change, and that they are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Nearly 700,00…

And there lies the difference that made my grandparents generation, albeit on the Allied side of WW2, the greatest generation. Not the willingness to go to war, that was enforced by drafts all over the globe back then. It was rather the total revamping of the economy, industry and society to support the war against the Nazis and Imperial Japanese. The UK went to rationing, and still people carried on in global strugg…

Sometimes I wish climate change was a person, or an idea, that threatened capitalism rather than a scientific phenomenon so that the American propaganda machine would take action to mobilize the American people. Unfortunately, this is not the reality we live in.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#66

Post by amelius »

akomtu wrote: post #47

If software was developed the way politicians pass laws, Linux would get one master commit every few years with thousands of unrelated things in it, from typo fixes to sketchy telemetry, with a 1500 pages long description, and the commit would be branded as "build security better". The review would be a months long show where maintainers of all factions with their own agendas would try to negotiate behind the closed…

Yes, but is a benevolent dictator the solution?

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#67

Post by cm2187 »

chillacy wrote: post #4
Guthur wrote: post #2

This article, per usual, is creating a completely false narrative. Just by opposing a particular bill that is ostensibly aimed at controlling the climate does not mean you are opposed to all actions aligned with that bills outward goals.

Not just that, but the article doesn't even mention until halfway in that this bill is a 3.5TN budget bill, very much full of other non-climate proposals. Most people will read and comment on the title.

This is unfortunately the most common form of intellectual dishonesty in newspapers. I would be curious to know the actual stats of what % of visitors read the headline, the subheadline, first paragraph, and last paragraph. I would bet something like 100%, 60%, 30%, 5%. So the favorite way for journalists to lie is to bury deep in the article the facts that contradict or mitigate the headline, so the article technically has the facts somewhere, but the vast majority of readers will be misled nevertheless.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#68

Post by ben_w »

allendoerfer wrote: post #58
roenxi wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that, but I get the feeling we've been here before. Pretty much every time there is an ambitious and expensive spending bill after a couple of years it turns out that the 21st century is still ahead. Eg, Obamacare would probably have been described as dragging the US into the 21st century and getting somewhere close to what every other modern democracy has offered for decades. And yet it turned out not to, th…

Fallacy. A step in the right direction is still better than taking no step at all.

Politicians always claim that what they want to do is a step right direction, are they correct?

I don’t know US politics, US law, economics, so I can’t possibly tell if this bill is actually good or bad for anything.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#69

Post by cm2187 »

opheliate wrote: post #18
chillacy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, but the article doesn't even mention until halfway in that this bill is a 3.5TN budget bill, very much full of other non-climate proposals. Most people will read and comment on the title.

Literally in the second paragraph: > oppose the proposed $3.5tn budget bill put forward by Democrats That makes it pretty clear to me that it's a $3.5TN budget bill. Also, that sentence is a link, so it's underlined. Difficult to miss.

I think the key part of the parent post is "very much full of other non-climate proposals", not the 3.5 number.

Re: Apple and Disney among companies backing groups against US climate bill

#70

Post by [deleted] »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #6

The Build Back Better bill (or reconciliation bill) is the only real climate legislation that will plausibly be signed into law in the United States in the 2020s. It offers a meaningful path forward for the US to curb its carbon emissions. Opposing it means you oppose doing anything about mitigating the climate crisis within the United States from a federal legislative perspective within a timeframe where we can reas…

[deleted]
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